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Guest5221
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 Posted - 05/12/2007 : 08:54:10
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It was Wayne Gretzky - the most GA in history, also the most ESGA.
I know people say these figures are 8 % of the total because there are 12 players on the ice.
ok so divide the totals by 12!
Its still Gretzky.
Also, must be just a coincidence that those other 11 players arent on any of the top lists for GA or ESGA. Except for Coffey.
So make it Gretzky and Coffey as the worst ever.
I guess that puts an final end to those ridiculous Gretzky- Michael Jordan comparisons since Jordan was also the best defensive player in NBA history.
Ther's a big difference between best and worst - like ALL the other players in history.
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 09:04:28
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Where did you get that stat ? ESGA...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 05/12/2007 09:04:48 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 09:47:53
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ESGA is a flawed stat.
It doesn't take into account minutes per game for one. It also does not take into account that a guy might play for a really crappy team.
Also, the stat has only been arounf since the late 60's, so to compare the Gretzky era of 8-5 scoring games to the 90's and 2000's games of 1-0 is really flawed!
Gretzky also had some years where he was the best +/- player in the league (4 times), so he's not in the running. He was a +98 one year, dude. You don't get to be +98 if you suck defensively.
I say probably Pavel Bure. I think he was a tremendous offensive player, but wow, he hardly came back into his own end sometiimes.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 10:24:46
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| Gretzky was good defensively. Orr had a plus minus of +120 in one season thats incredible. |
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Guest5221
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Posted - 05/12/2007 : 11:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
ESGA is a flawed stat.
It doesn't take into account minutes per game for one. It also does not take into account that a guy might play for a really crappy team.
Also, the stat has only been arounf since the late 60's, so to compare the Gretzky era of 8-5 scoring games to the 90's and 2000's games of 1-0 is really flawed!
Gretzky also had some years where he was the best +/- player in the league (4 times), so he's not in the running. He was a +98 one year, dude. You don't get to be +98 if you suck defensively.
I say probably Pavel Bure. I think he was a tremendous offensive player, but wow, he hardly came back into his own end sometiimes.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz
Yeah, anything that maks gretz look bad is a "flawed stat".
And I wouldnt bring up +/_ if I were you. Gretz was a total minus for the majority of his career (the last 11 years of his 19 year career he was a total minus).
Thats why the good teams didnt want him.
Nor woudl I bring up the era of 8-5 games. That was only in the West Conference. |
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Guest5221
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Posted - 05/12/2007 : 11:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
Where did you get that stat ? ESGA...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
Wilus3 has them. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 13:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5221
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
ESGA is a flawed stat.
It doesn't take into account minutes per game for one. It also does not take into account that a guy might play for a really crappy team.
Also, the stat has only been arounf since the late 60's, so to compare the Gretzky era of 8-5 scoring games to the 90's and 2000's games of 1-0 is really flawed!
Gretzky also had some years where he was the best +/- player in the league (4 times), so he's not in the running. He was a +98 one year, dude. You don't get to be +98 if you suck defensively.
I say probably Pavel Bure. I think he was a tremendous offensive player, but wow, he hardly came back into his own end sometiimes.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz
Yeah, anything that maks gretz look bad is a "flawed stat".
And I wouldnt bring up +/_ if I were you. Gretz was a total minus for the majority of his career (the last 11 years of his 19 year career he was a total minus).
Thats why the good teams didnt want him.
Nor woudl I bring up the era of 8-5 games. That was only in the West Conference.
You are incorrect in several ways, but I'll just point out a couple for the sake of time.
First, Gretzky was a +518 for his career. He was a minus player for 6 of his 19 seasons, not 11. Steve Yzerman was a minus player 5 times in his career. He wasn't poor defensively.
Second, the east was not exactly hammering it out with a lot of 2-0 games back in the 80'sor early 90's. In 1989-90, for example, the NEW JERSEY DEVILS scored 295 goals (that's way over 3 goals for per game)and lost out in the first round. In 2002-2003 they scored 216 and won the Stanley Cup.
Just a couple examples, I have more.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 14:45:24
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Total goals against (career):
1. Gretzky - 2,285
2. Bourque - 2,145
3. Messier - 2,109
4. Coffey - 2,018
5. Stevens - 1,984
Even-strength goals against (career):
1. Gretzky - 1,838
2. Coffey - 1,654
3. Murphy - 1,541
4. Bourque - 1,458
5. Messier - 1,455
Gretzky leads both of these categories. The rest of the guys on the list played during the same era he did.
Gretzky played less minutes per game and less career games than Bourque yet has a worse ga stat. General concensus is Gretz played about 24 minutes/game. Bourque about 28.
And yes you can get to a +98 and still be bad defensively if you play on a potent offensive team like the Oilers. You just have to score more than the other team, which they did regularly.
And what 5221 means about the last 11 years is that for the last eleven years he was a net negative. Basically after he left the Oilers and joined average teams.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 18:10:06
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I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement Willus. He left the Oilers and joined average teams.
I would like to see those ESGF and ESGA stats for the time he was an Oiler and then for the other teams he played for. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 22:54:36
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I would hope Bourque was more defensive than Gretzky. He was, after all, a defenseman.
If you get the chance, boys and girls, andyhack invites you to push his kids headfirst into the boards while he tells those around him he forgives you. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 07:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I would hope Bourque was more defensive than Gretzky. He was, after all, a defenseman.
Understood Fly, however +/- works the same way for forwards and defenceman.
+/- is a flawed stat, no doubt, but this ESGA stat is telling. I wouldn't say he is the worst defensive player ever but I would say he was the worst from his era.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 16:42:42
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| Gretzky's entire focus was offense, not defence, and when a player is that good offensively it really doesn't matter how many even strength goals he's on the ice for. Just look at his career plus minus. You can't judge him as a player using this stat when you consider that most of the teams he played for after Edmonton were defensively atrocious and only a handful of them (the early LA years) were offensively dangerous. Gretzky's job was to score points, and that he did, regardless of the poor offensive and poor defensive teams he played for in the 1990s. |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 16:48:56
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| Just to add a thought.... Gretzky won his 10th scoring title in 1994 on an LA team that didn't even make the playoffs. Would it be fair to pin that on him? Or shall we concede that Gretzky had a stellar year, but LA was full of defensive and offensive liabilities? One player never makes a team, but many people will suggest the team makes the one player for some reason. We cannot have it both ways. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 17:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
Just to add a thought.... Gretzky won his 10th scoring title in 1994 on an LA team that didn't even make the playoffs. Would it be fair to pin that on him? Or shall we concede that Gretzky had a stellar year, but LA was full of defensive and offensive liabilities? One player never makes a team, but many people will suggest the team makes the one player for some reason. We cannot have it both ways.
Perhaps if he had played more responsibly in his own end they would have made the playoffs?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 18:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
Just to add a thought.... Gretzky won his 10th scoring title in 1994 on an LA team that didn't even make the playoffs. Would it be fair to pin that on him? Or shall we concede that Gretzky had a stellar year, but LA was full of defensive and offensive liabilities? One player never makes a team, but many people will suggest the team makes the one player for some reason. We cannot have it both ways.
Perhaps if he had played more responsibly in his own end they would have made the playoffs?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Gretzky had 130 points that year, many of which won games for the Kings. Gretzky was far better at offense than defence. Therefore his defensive heroics would not have outweighed his offensive heroics. Even if they had, one player (non goalie) -- defensive or offesnive -- would not have gotten that underachieving Kings team into the playoffs. Maybe if they had Patrick Roy, but that's a big maybe. Mike Donnelly said it it the best that year (around about the time Gretzky was leading the NHL in scoring by about 20 points).... "The greatest player in the world is playing his heart out each and every night and the rest of us aren't even bothering to show up. It's disgusting."
One player doesn't make a team, nor a team the player. Goalies are different however, as their impact on a team is spread throughout the entire 60 minutes and is much more direct. They literally stop the score from going up. This is why I feel it's unfair for goalies to be included in the Hart Trophy balloting, as they already have a huge head start in "valuable to his team" factor.....but that's another thread. |
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GOWINGS19
Rookie
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 22:10:35
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Mathieu Dandenault
"I don’t need to score the goal. I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals." -Vladmir Konstantinov |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 22:23:25
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Hey Chooch... you seem like a broken record. Unfortunately, it's broken with false stats and illogic. We've been through these discussions 100 times and never once a logical argument has been made for your case.
Cheers. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 22:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
Gretzky's entire focus was offense, not defence, and when a player is that good offensively it really doesn't matter how many even strength goals he's on the ice for. Just look at his career plus minus. You can't judge him as a player using this stat when you consider that most of the teams he played for after Edmonton were defensively atrocious and only a handful of them (the early LA years) were offensively dangerous. Gretzky's job was to score points, and that he did, regardless of the poor offensive and poor defensive teams he played for in the 1990s.
It matters when your team isn't winning. Score all you want, but if the other team scores more, you lose. Had he been willing to help his team win by doing whatever it took instead of worrying about the precious records he wanted to break, maybe he wouldn't be the all time leader in the ESGA category too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 22:53:12
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So CBC showed the 7th game of the 93 Leafs/Kings series tonight. I thought I better watch it and just make sure I wasn't wrong on my thinking that Gretzky was poor defensively.
I'm not wrong. This game refreshed my memory. In this game Gretzky was always the last out of the offensive zone. In his own end you usually couldn't see him until the camera zoomed out to where you could see the blue line or beyond. I did actually see him all the way back to the circles once.
I'm sorry but anyone saying Gretzky was decent or better defensively is just fabricating memories.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 01:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
Gretzky's entire focus was offense, not defence, and when a player is that good offensively it really doesn't matter how many even strength goals he's on the ice for. Just look at his career plus minus. You can't judge him as a player using this stat when you consider that most of the teams he played for after Edmonton were defensively atrocious and only a handful of them (the early LA years) were offensively dangerous. Gretzky's job was to score points, and that he did, regardless of the poor offensive and poor defensive teams he played for in the 1990s.
It matters when your team isn't winning. Score all you want, but if the other team scores more, you lose. Had he been willing to help his team win by doing whatever it took instead of worrying about the precious records he wanted to break, maybe he wouldn't be the all time leader in the ESGA category too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
I detect a bit of resentment toward Gretzky in your post. |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 01:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
So CBC showed the 7th game of the 93 Leafs/Kings series tonight. I thought I better watch it and just make sure I wasn't wrong on my thinking that Gretzky was poor defensively.
I'm not wrong. This game refreshed my memory. In this game Gretzky was always the last out of the offensive zone. In his own end you usually couldn't see him until the camera zoomed out to where you could see the blue line or beyond. I did actually see him all the way back to the circles once.
I'm sorry but anyone saying Gretzky was decent or better defensively is just fabricating memories.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
To appreciate Gretzky, you had to learn how to watch him, and to know why he did the things he did. Part of Gretzky's game was to disappear....and then reappear in a place where no one would find him open. He found holes and became invisible. But he was smart about it. If you notice, Gretzky had 4 points in game 7, including a hat trick, and when he had to be defensive he was. Lifting the stick and checking the Leaf players in the final minutes was exemplorary. That's defence. Not hustling back to your own zone for no good reason. He read the game better than anyone in NHL history. It's no wonder not everyone could appreciate what he was doing....most never could figure it out. |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 07:09:41
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Keep sippin the haterade Willus3.
Stats can be made to say anything you want them to. I'm curious how the reverse stat looks? I would imagine Gretzky is at the top of that one as well.
As for the worst defensive player of all time, gonna go with Valeri Bure. Decent with the puck, but if he got bumped off, he would just give up and watch. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 11:15:10
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I think another thing to consider here are the team mates. Gretzky was almost always on the ice with the teams best offensive players. I can not think of many defensive specialists he was on the ice with.
Bourque on this list surprises me. Many people peg him as on of the best defensemen ever.
So how can this stat be used to say Gretzky is the worst when Bourque is on the list and he is one of the best ever???
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 11:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think another thing to consider here are the team mates. Gretzky was almost always on the ice with the teams best offensive players. I can not think of many defensive specialists he was on the ice with.
Bourque on this list surprises me. Many people peg him as on of the best defensemen ever.
So how can this stat be used to say Gretzky is the worst when Bourque is on the list and he is one of the best ever???
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Exactly, Beans, and especially when you consider Bourque was a defenseman, not the greatest offensive force in the history of organized sport! You wouldn't expect it out of a supposed defensive defensman who is regarded as one of the best ever at preventing goals. Yet he is right up there with Gretzky. Tells you a lot about the relevance of this stat, doesn't it? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 16:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Keep sippin the haterade Willus3.
Stats can be made to say anything you want them to. I'm curious how the reverse stat looks? I would imagine Gretzky is at the top of that one as well.
As for the worst defensive player of all time, gonna go with Valeri Bure. Decent with the puck, but if he got bumped off, he would just give up and watch.
I'm not a hater BigShow. Why is it that Gretz lovers can never take any critique of him? Every other player is fair game but don't even think about saying a negative word about Gretzky.
Ok BigShow, you tell me how you spin the ESGA stat then?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 16:42:05
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[
[/quote]
I detect a bit of resentment toward Gretzky in your post.
[/quote]
I detect blind, stat fueled love for Gretzky in all of your posts.
If you become a member I may debate with you. Until then...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 16:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think another thing to consider here are the team mates. Gretzky was almost always on the ice with the teams best offensive players. I can not think of many defensive specialists he was on the ice with.
Bourque on this list surprises me. Many people peg him as on of the best defensemen ever.
So how can this stat be used to say Gretzky is the worst when Bourque is on the list and he is one of the best ever???
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Bourque played far more minutes per game against all manner of offensive players and played quite a few more games. Hmmm...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think another thing to consider here are the team mates. Gretzky was almost always on the ice with the teams best offensive players. I can not think of many defensive specialists he was on the ice with.
Bourque on this list surprises me. Many people peg him as on of the best defensemen ever.
So how can this stat be used to say Gretzky is the worst when Bourque is on the list and he is one of the best ever???
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Bourque played far more minutes per game against all manner of offensive players and played quite a few more games. Hmmm...
 I think that any argument using these stats lose their effectiveness as soon as you look at the others on the list. C'mon mang... either use the stats to prove a point, or dont... If you use them and bring them up as evidence, then they are entire available for anyone else to use in the same argument for anyone else on the list.
dont be hypocritical. |
Edited by - tctitans on 05/14/2007 17:06:35 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:27:05
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[/quote]Bourque played far more minutes per game against all manner of offensive players and played quite a few more games. Hmmm...
[/quote]
I think that any argument using these stats lose their effectiveness as soon as you look at the others on the list. C'mon mang... either use the stats to prove a point, or dont... If you use them and bring them up as evidence, then they are entire available for anyone else to use in the same argument for anyone else on the list.
dont be hypocritical.
[/quote]
How exactly am I being hypocritical? I simply responded to Beans why I thought Bourque would be there on that list...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest7418
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think another thing to consider here are the team mates. Gretzky was almost always on the ice with the teams best offensive players. I can not think of many defensive specialists he was on the ice with.
Bourque on this list surprises me. Many people peg him as on of the best defensemen ever.
So how can this stat be used to say Gretzky is the worst when Bourque is on the list and he is one of the best ever???
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Bourque played far more minutes per game against all manner of offensive players and played quite a few more games. Hmmm...
I think that any argument using these stats lose their effectiveness as soon as you look at the others on the list. C'mon mang... either use the stats to prove a point, or dont... If you use them and bring them up as evidence, then they are entire available for anyone else to use in the same argument for anyone else on the list.
dont be hypocritical.
I agree completely. Let's use these stats now to prove how Bourque was one of the top 5 worst defensive players ever. According to Willus, that's what these facts state, so let's try and argue this point.
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JOKE! |
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Guest7418
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:44:15
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| JOKE... as in "What a JOKE" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:44:35
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[/quote]
I agree completely. Let's use these stats now to prove how Bourque was one of the top 5 worst defensive players ever. According to Willus, that's what these facts state, so let's try and argue this point.
...
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JOKE!
[/quote]
Start another thread and lets do that.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 17:58:17
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This has also been discussed in another thead, but you cant look at ESGA stat alone without looking at the +/- as well.
there *is* a significant relationship. Neither are 100% telling, but they both do provide vital information. Discussing ESGA without +/- is misleading. |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 22:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
[
I detect a bit of resentment toward Gretzky in your post.
[/quote]
I detect blind, stat fueled love for Gretzky in all of your posts.
If you become a member I may debate with you. Until then...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]
Haha, just what I thought!
And are you sure you want to debate me? I doubt I'll become a member, so you don't have to worry.  |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 03:32:04
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Guest 9910, just out of curiosity, you wouldn't happen to be very closely related to a guy whose last name was "forapuckguy", would you? Very very closely related, I wonder
Either way, I can't speak for Willus (other than to perhaps mention that I think he has said things like this before), but I personally really, truly, sincerely,etc etc etc do NOT hate Wayne Gretzky! And having an opinion that Gretzky wasn't the best, or didn't do some things, like defence, very well, doesn't mean I don't appreciate the brilliance of the guy.
I haven't come up with an answer to the question here. I do think Bure is a good candidate though. As for Wayne, I think it is safe to simply leave it at something like "he was not very good defensively", as some of the Gretzky camp, to their credit, have admitted (though most quickly follow that up with "that wasn't his role" and so on, which I can buy to a certain point).
Edit: On second thought, after reading some of Guest 7418's comments on other threads, maybe I have the wrong guy. Or is a "clique" forming?
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Edited by - andyhack on 05/15/2007 03:49:48 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 06:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
[
I detect a bit of resentment toward Gretzky in your post.
I detect blind, stat fueled love for Gretzky in all of your posts.
If you become a member I may debate with you. Until then...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]
Haha, just what I thought!
And are you sure you want to debate me? I doubt I'll become a member, so you don't have to worry.
[/quote]
Am I sure I want to debate you? I'm not worried but thanks for the chuckle...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 05/15/2007 09:50:58 |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 07:53:15
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| I'm not a huge fan of Gretzky, but these stats are a bit off the wall. Notice that all the top players in ESGA are stars. Some are even known to be very good defenders, like Bourque and Coffey. All the top players on the list had extended careers that players without their caliber wouldn't be able to muster. Pro-rate it per game and Gretzky won't be at the top. I don't see a need to prove your justification for hating Gretzky that is largely irrational in the first place. I'm not convinced he's the greatest ever, but I can say that because I've watched him play and watched others play, not because I dig for some statistic to prove the point. Serious observers of talent watch them play rather than digging for stats. I'd rather watch old hockey films than dig around on the internet for stats. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 09:29:13
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I think we can all agree that Gretzky was not a defensive jugernaut. That is a given. However, I don't recall as clearly as other him being a defensive slouch. I can't remember which person said it, but they talked about Gretzky finding seams in the game where he went "invinsable" then re-appeared in the play at the right time. Also, he was a smaller guy, so most of his defensive play was elusive. Lifting sticks and poking away the puck.
Just because he didn't play a typical defensive game of being physical and checking guys off the puck does not mean his defense was bad, just different. He was average defensively, but not a slouch.
And the ESGA stat is deceiving. Wonder why all of the player on the list played the majority of the 80's?? The highest scoring period of the NHL?? Also, a good player on a weaker team will have more goals scored against them. Just like +/-.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 09:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
I'm not a huge fan of Gretzky, but these stats are a bit off the wall. Notice that all the top players in ESGA are stars. Some are even known to be very good defenders, like Bourque and Coffey. All the top players on the list had extended careers that players without their caliber wouldn't be able to muster. Pro-rate it per game and Gretzky won't be at the top. I don't see a need to prove your justification for hating Gretzky that is largely irrational in the first place. I'm not convinced he's the greatest ever, but I can say that because I've watched him play and watched others play, not because I dig for some statistic to prove the point. Serious observers of talent watch them play rather than digging for stats. I'd rather watch old hockey films than dig around on the internet for stats.
If you are referring to me, then clearly you have not read many of my posts.
And for the 800th time, I DON'T @#*&ING HATE Gretzky!!!!!
And just for you I will pro-rate the stat.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 09:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think we can all agree that Gretzky was not a defensive jugernaut. That is a given. However, I don't recall as clearly as other him being a defensive slouch. I can't remember which person said it, but they talked about Gretzky finding seams in the game where he went "invinsable" then re-appeared in the play at the right time. Also, he was a smaller guy, so most of his defensive play was elusive. Lifting sticks and poking away the puck.
Just because he didn't play a typical defensive game of being physical and checking guys off the puck does not mean his defense was bad, just different. He was average defensively, but not a slouch.
And the ESGA stat is deceiving. Wonder why all of the player on the list played the majority of the 80's?? The highest scoring period of the NHL?? Also, a good player on a weaker team will have more goals scored against them. Just like +/-.
I did say in one of my previous posts that I didn't think he was the worst all time as the stat would indicate. I said he was the worst of his era.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/15/2007 : 12:40:50
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Beautiful post, Beans. I agree with everything you said.
Andyhack... I'm not sure who this puck guy is. I just started posting here recently. I'm brand new! You seem like a very reasonable fellow Andyack, which is a breath of fresh air on internet boards :) In regards to Wayne's defence, I never said he was a top defensive player or anything. I just don't buy into this skewed stat which is trying to prove, mystically, that he is somehow the worst defensive player ever (as the subject title asks). I think that claim is completely ridiculous, and it is any truth seeker's duty to refute such shallow and off the mark assertions.
And Willus, don't know what to say in response to you....glad you find your disdain so amusing, I guess!
Anyway, it's great to finally talk hockey again! Thanks guys. |
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Topic |
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Who was the worst defensive player ever 
