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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:21:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the thing with Spezza is, as much as he can be a dynamic offensive player, he just doesn't play the two way game that others do. His offensive skill could match some of the other centers, but their D will win them that spot over him every time. No disrespect to Spezza either, i like him as a player and love his offensive game. I've also read that he's not suited to be move to a wing spot so considering the depth Canada has at C, he'd have to be top 2-3 to make it seeing as he's not going to be a defensive / grinding / shut down center on the team!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:34:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another thing with Spezza is, let's face it, the guy has had a lot of injury issues. In the past 4 years he has only one season of more than 65 games and he is coming off a pretty serious surgery.

I like Spezza too but he is like a US defensemen. Good, perhaps great. Just not good enough to make team Canada.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  13:18:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like Spezza too but he is like a US defensemen. Good, perhaps great. Just not good enough to make team Canada.






Well played!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  14:15:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your right, often over looked, but rarely outplayed, Spezza is much like the USA defenseman we have talked about. Not gonna complain about his not being invited though, because of the injuries, although most people who have watched Spezza evolve in the last 5 years or so are not complaining about his 2way play at this time. He has rounded more and without Heatly, the unmoving Pilon, no longer his linemate, who was the real defensive liability.

Getting back to Seabrook for a second here, Keith makes him look like an allstar and the chemistry between them is why Seabrook gets an invite. If you would like I can dig up a post or 10 from 2010 which argued he didn't belong on that team either.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like Spezza too but he is like a US defensemen. Good, perhaps great. Just not good enough to make team Canada.






Well played!



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  14:35:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Your right, often over looked, but rarely outplayed, Spezza is much like the USA defenseman we have talked about. Not gonna complain about his not being invited though, because of the injuries, although most people who have watched Spezza evolve in the last 5 years or so are not complaining about his 2way play at this time. He has rounded more and without Heatly, the unmoving Pilon, no longer his linemate, who was the real defensive liability.

Getting back to Seabrook for a second here, Keith makes him look like an allstar and the chemistry between them is why Seabrook gets an invite. If you would like I can dig up a post or 10 from 2010 which argued he didn't belong on that team either.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like Spezza too but he is like a US defensemen. Good, perhaps great. Just not good enough to make team Canada.






Well played!



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



I'm sure you could pull out a post or 2 from 2010. I can also pull out a post or two from 2010 that discussed players like Pronger, Marleau, and Heatley for team Canada.

My point you ask?? 2012 is irrelevant. We are talking about the 2014 Olympics. Find me more than a handful of Canadian Defensemen that have acheived more or deserve to be on the team more than Seabrook based on his past 2-3 years of performance.


PS - Remember how many people said that Suter would falter after leaving Nashville and that Weber 'propped' him up?? How many people were wrong about that?? Keith and Seabrook are a great tandem because they not only play incredibly well together but they also support each others weaknesses. Keith is notorious for jumping up in the play and there are often times that Seabrook bails him out. Seabrook does not have the foot speed or the passing abilities that Keith has and gets the support in those areas.

However, take Seabrook or Keith off that team and put them on another squad and they are still both great players.

Why all this angst towards Seabrook?? I don't get it.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  15:53:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Getting back to Seabrook for a second here, Keith makes him look like an allstar and the chemistry between them is why Seabrook gets an invite. If you would like I can dig up a post or 10 from 2010 which argued he didn't belong on that team either.



I wouldn't doubt i was one of the guys saying Seabrook didn't belong last time around, however, now i'd argue i was right to some degree. He really didn't play much and they could have chosen other guys i'm sure to have played the role he did. They sheltered him someowhat with his pairings and minutes the way you see NHL teams do with rookies and / or 7th/8th dmen!

I think he's progressed to the point that he deserves a spot today but at the same time, he's near the bottom of my "top 7" and i think this time around, he makes it more because of his chemistry with Keith as i'm guessing they'll be a pairing this time.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  18:40:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Because you called him an elite defenseman and put him in a higher ranking than USA defenders I would have slotted in before him. Seabrook and Keith are great. Keith gets injured and Seabrook is not the elite part of the pairing. Would you pair him along side Letang? Another reason Seabrook might not make the team is he is a Right handed player and the best of what Canada has are slanted to the right (Keith, Doughty, Letang, Pietrangelo, Subban or Weber). If you look to drop a disposable right to use a left in his place Seabrook doesn't rank as high as 4-5 other right handed defenseman. Karl Alzner, Bouwmeester, Dan Hamhuis, Keith, Marc Methot, Dion Phaneuf, Marc Staal and Marc-Edouard Vlasic are all left handed shots and will likely take his spot.

It aint hate for Seabrook. Here is an article that supports what I was trying to say here.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=678900&navid=nhl:topheads


quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Your right, often over looked, but rarely outplayed, Spezza is much like the USA defenseman we have talked about. Not gonna complain about his not being invited though, because of the injuries, although most people who have watched Spezza evolve in the last 5 years or so are not complaining about his 2way play at this time. He has rounded more and without Heatly, the unmoving Pilon, no longer his linemate, who was the real defensive liability.

Getting back to Seabrook for a second here, Keith makes him look like an allstar and the chemistry between them is why Seabrook gets an invite. If you would like I can dig up a post or 10 from 2010 which argued he didn't belong on that team either.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like Spezza too but he is like a US defensemen. Good, perhaps great. Just not good enough to make team Canada.






Well played!



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



I'm sure you could pull out a post or 2 from 2010. I can also pull out a post or two from 2010 that discussed players like Pronger, Marleau, and Heatley for team Canada.

My point you ask?? 2012 is irrelevant. We are talking about the 2014 Olympics. Find me more than a handful of Canadian Defensemen that have acheived more or deserve to be on the team more than Seabrook based on his past 2-3 years of performance.


PS - Remember how many people said that Suter would falter after leaving Nashville and that Weber 'propped' him up?? How many people were wrong about that?? Keith and Seabrook are a great tandem because they not only play incredibly well together but they also support each others weaknesses. Keith is notorious for jumping up in the play and there are often times that Seabrook bails him out. Seabrook does not have the foot speed or the passing abilities that Keith has and gets the support in those areas.

However, take Seabrook or Keith off that team and put them on another squad and they are still both great players.

Why all this angst towards Seabrook?? I don't get it.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  21:09:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua , watching the blackhawks play, i think the opposite of what you said of Keith and Seabrook.

Keith is a great offensive D-man but Seabrook ( in my opinion ) makes up for Keiths weakness at the defensive part of the game. I think that this weakness would show up with more regulararity if Keith was missing Seabrook.

Seabrook is a great all round defenseman. Not many defenders bring an all element defensive profile to the game as Seabrook does. This guy would be a standout on any NHL team in my opinion.

If the leafs were lucky enough to have Seabrook play alongside Phaneuf.......Dion would look out-standing, not that i think that Phaneuf is out-standing but Seabrook would make him look so.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  21:22:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Luongo will show up for Canada. Our defense will be great and Canada will have a super forward group, no matter who they choose. Hope they go with some youth and speed up front.

Other than Canada vs Russia, which may very well be a 6-5 game.....( in my opinion ) look for low scoring games when Canada plays the other countries because of great goal-tending...........i`m predicting a Canada vs USA gold medal game.

As for Quick getting the starting role for the USA, he is great but i surely wouldn`t rule out R. Miller for one minute. He is still a big time ( big game ) goalie.......we got lucky the last time when Crosby scored that odd angle goal, other than that, Miller looked unbeatable..........

Don`t forget that game winning goal for the USA either, which Luongo robbed them of with his glove hand.......looked like it was lights out but Lou came through.......if not for that, Crosby wouldn`t have had his opportunity.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  21:39:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The point of left handed vs right handed shots is valid. Not saying it means anything but I listened to an interview with associate head coach Ken Hitchcock who said they will go with the best players and if that means 6 righties or 6 lefties so be it. I don't completely believe that but he did say it.

That said, I take Seabrook over Pietroanglo and Subban easily and maybe ahead of Letang. Firstly, Seabrook has 2 Cups and a Gold medal. None of the other guys I mentioned have won cups or medals. Secondly, Seabrook is more physical and better defensively than the other guys. Doughty, Keith, and Weber are more than enough offence. Team Canada will need stay home shutdown guys like Seabrook.


PS, your post eludes to Keith being both a righty and a lefty. Not sure what he actually is.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  23:06:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua....absolutely, if they really want a lefty, then perhaps Seabrook is left off the squad. I won't argue that!!! However, if another righty, say Weber or Doughty, gets hurt, Seabrook would likely be the natural replacement.

Oh, and keep in mind what we've actually been debating here.......Shattenkirk, E. Johnson, D. Byfuglien, and Z. Bogosian are all righties who I think Seabrook would beat out for a spot (if those guys where Canadian). I conceded that J. Johnson would be a coin toss (lefty), and I maintain that I think even as a lefty (unless those picking were adamant on a lefty), Seabrook beats out Yandle.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  08:11:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was just an observation that Yserman made when predicting they will go with 3-4 righty's and 2-3 Lefty's. Of the depth chart Seabrook is regarded lower than 3-4 of the righty's Canada has. I agree that Seabrook is the more defensive of the Keith/Seabrook pairing, but if they truly want to pair a right and a left as they are stating, they might not go with the pairing. Like I said its not hate on Seabrook, I just don't slot him in the top 6 in Canada without Keith. If you state Keith has holes in his game which Seabrook covers to make him Elite, then my question is separately are either Elite without the other? If they are looking for the best available individually and either of the 2 goes down to injury, does that mean the other is not picked?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  08:20:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Joshua....absolutely, if they really want a lefty, then perhaps Seabrook is left off the squad. I won't argue that!!! However, if another righty, say Weber or Doughty, gets hurt, Seabrook would likely be the natural replacement.

Oh, and keep in mind what we've actually been debating here.......Shattenkirk, E. Johnson, D. Byfuglien, and Z. Bogosian are all righties who I think Seabrook would beat out for a spot (if those guys where Canadian). I conceded that J. Johnson would be a coin toss (lefty), and I maintain that I think even as a lefty (unless those picking were adamant on a lefty), Seabrook beats out Yandle.


On the basis of pure defensive game I slot Seabrook over Byfuglien, but with all the other parts Canada has on defense I don't think we have a 6-5 265 pound defenseman who can score at .8 ppg pace and the versatility of Byfuglien. I think in a game of pickup I'd choose Byfuglien over Seabrook. Olympic roster pickup by the pro's I don't know who they would choose.

Wouldn't it be the best job in the world to pick a team of North Americans vs the world.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  08:43:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, it's no different than when Weber and Suter played together. They also filled in hole in each others games. But that doesn't mean they are not still both elite defensemen.

Looking back on this team, there is a valid discussion around the lefties and righties. I am not sure if it will be an even split but it's very reasonable to say there will be a mix of both. If we were ranking the defensemen who are right handed shots I would be hard pressed to put Seabrook in the top three but he is in the argument. Weber and Doughty are easily my top. #3 would either be Boyle, Peitreangelo, and Seabrook. The next 2 after that would be Letang and Subban.

How would you rank them?? (Question not directed to anyone specifically)


Lefties
Alzner
Bouwmeester
Hamhuis
Keith
Methot
Phaneuf
Staal
Vlasic


Righties

Boyle
Doughty
Green
Homonic
Letang
Peitrangelo
Seabrook
Subban
Weber



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  09:56:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Joshua, it's no different than when Weber and Suter played together. They also filled in hole in each others games. But that doesn't mean they are not still both elite defensemen.

Looking back on this team, there is a valid discussion around the lefties and righties. I am not sure if it will be an even split but it's very reasonable to say there will be a mix of both. If we were ranking the defensemen who are right handed shots I would be hard pressed to put Seabrook in the top three but he is in the argument. Weber and Doughty are easily my top. #3 would either be Boyle, Peitreangelo, and Seabrook. The next 2 after that would be Letang and Subban.

How would you rank them?? (Question not directed to anyone specifically)


Lefties
Alzner
Bouwmeester Speed, Size, experience and well rounded
Hamhuis
Keith Speed, Size, Experience and Offense
Methot Speed, Size, Versitile and Defense
Phaneuf
Staal
Vlasic


Righties

Boyle Size, Offense, Shot, Experience and well rounded
Doughty Speed, Size, offense, experience and well rounded
Green
Homonic
Letang Speed, best offense of the group and Chemistry Crosby
Peitrangelo
Seabrook
Subban Speed, Size and Offense
Weber Size, Offense, Shot, experience and well rounded



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/25/2013 10:01:42
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  10:08:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To me on Defense from the right side in Canada, Doughty Weber and Boyle are the top 3 with a well rounded defensive game and high offense. Best offensive weapons from the right side are Letang and Subban, which pinches out Seabrook from the right who is good at both, but not greater than these 5.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/25/2013 10:09:10
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  10:23:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Reading projections for USA lineup on NHL.com and notice John Carlson is on all 3 rosters? Who is John Carlson, because I have no clue. Miller and Quick picked on all 3 but Howard with 2 votes and Scheider with 1 vote. Surprised Anderson left off the voting with his impressive season last year with top stats in both catagories.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  10:46:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, simply classifying the defensemen you have:

Offensive defensemen of Doughty, Subban, Boyle, and Letang
Balanced defensemen of Weber, Keith, and Bouwmeester
Defensive defencemen of Methot??

No way that Boyle and Doughty are known as a 'balanced' defensemen.

And you take Methot over Seabrook as the 7th guy?? Really?? Also, you have 8 defensemen on your roster. It's highly unlikely the team will go with 8 defensemen and 12 forwards.

I think for all the times I complained about those people with Blue Tinted glasses there was this guy with such a massive Senators bias that was right in front of me!

I hate trying to prove a point with people that are so stuck in their ways. Saying you put Methot on the team ahead of proven winner and chemistry with Keith. You claim Letang makes the squad because of chemistry with Crosby??

I guess I am done here. Nothing more to prove.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  11:25:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

So, simply classifying the defensemen you have:

Offensive defensemen of Doughty, Subban, Boyle, and Letang
Balanced defensemen of Weber, Keith, and Bouwmeester
Defensive defencemen of Methot??

No way that Boyle and Doughty are known as a 'balanced' defensemen.

And you take Methot over Seabrook as the 7th guy?? Really?? Also, you have 8 defensemen on your roster. It's highly unlikely the team will go with 8 defensemen and 12 forwards.

I think for all the times I complained about those people with Blue Tinted glasses there was this guy with such a massive Senators bias that was right in front of me!

I hate trying to prove a point with people that are so stuck in their ways. Saying you put Methot on the team ahead of proven winner and chemistry with Keith. You claim Letang makes the squad because of chemistry with Crosby??

I guess I am done here. Nothing more to prove.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Wow, quick to judge, Beans. Did you read the right handed reasoning for why Seabrook was off and the left handed reasoning for Methot, who is left handed and can play with just about anyone, to why I suggested he be included over a 6 defenseman on the right. Plus if you notice, I picked 5 from the right and 3 from the left and 1 will be an IR, so my pick of 8 is actually 7 with 1 on IR. If you don't agree, great! Why the angst. Its not like I pee'd on the Maple Leaf. I defintley didn't do a momma joke.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/25/2013 12:25:36
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  11:45:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I read the reasoning. It's just completely rediculous that's all. here are my issues with your statement.

1 - You picked 8 guys. What's is the IR?? Are you talking about the taxi squad because that is 3 players of any position.

2 - You said that Boyle and Doughty are 'balanced' defensemen. I disagree. They are offensive defensemen. You have 3 balanced guys (Keith, Bouwmeester, and Weber), 4 offensive guys (Boyle, Letang, Subban, Doughty) and one defensive guy (Methot). You have 1 defensively focused defensemen on a team that will be playing against the most talented hockey teams in the world and he is likely on the taxi squad. Really??

3 - You cite that Letang would be on your team based on chemisty with Crosby. So Letang (a defender) makes the team because of his chemistry with Crosby (a forward) but Seabrook doesn't make the team even with the chemistry he would have with his every day playing partner??


Joke. Completely joke.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  12:22:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I read the reasoning. It's just completely rediculous that's all. here are my issues with your statement.

1 - You picked 8 guys. What's is the IR?? Are you talking about the taxi squad because that is 3 players of any position.

2 - You said that Boyle and Doughty are 'balanced' defensemen. I disagree. They are offensive defensemen. You have 3 balanced guys (Keith, Bouwmeester, and Weber), 4 offensive guys (Boyle, Letang, Subban, Doughty) and one defensive guy (Methot). You have 1 defensively focused defensemen on a team that will be playing against the most talented hockey teams in the world and he is likely on the taxi squad. Really??

3 - You cite that Letang would be on your team based on chemisty with Crosby. So Letang (a defender) makes the team because of his chemistry with Crosby (a forward) but Seabrook doesn't make the team even with the chemistry he would have with his every day playing partner??


Joke. Completely joke.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Man you are just arguing, arguing, arguing today Beans! What's a joke is I never said that Methot would be on the Taxi squad (IR reserve), Seabrook, as defined by my right handed explaination, is not on my list of 4-5 right handed inclusions, even with his chemistry with Keith, because the other guys on the right are better individually in there own ways than Seabrook. Letang is the best offensive defenseman on Canada's invite list and a lot of that has to do with his chemistry 5 on 5 and PP with Crosby. You disagree that Boyle and Doughty have rounded games with excellent offensive skills (I disagree that they are weak defensively BTW), but noted 3 guys with well rounded games and another with excellent defensive game. So why are you fighting so hard for Seabrook. Is he dating your momma? (now that was a momma joke) Doughty was Canada's best defenseman in the last Olympics, but you don't like him defensively, Great! If you don't think Boyle can handle Olympics then also, Great! I am gonna go play NHL 2014 and play with my team you go and play with yours.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  12:41:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bleacher report has this to say about Doughty "Putting his best shutdown defenseman in Weber with an elite two-way player in Doughty makes the most sense as the top pairing." It does go on to say that Keith and Seabrook make sense as the #2 pairing due to there chemistry, but puts Peitrangelo and Subban as the final pairing, which are both righty's. I still disagree with the on paper with the top 6 defenseman, but feel justified that a "expert" says Doughty is a Elite 2way player.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  15:34:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW....i consider Doughty more "balanced" myself and in fact think his offensive game has been a little stale since Voynov's breakout in LA last year. Doughty had the one big offensive year in 2010 (59pts) but has since fallen back to a 40pt guy. Still nice numbers, but not like many thought we'd see from him.

I too think "Letang's chemistry with Crosby" is ridiculous. Sure, they play PP together (and some even strength of course), but i don't think fwd-d chemistry is anything like two dmen playing together consistently.

Having said that, here's my pick for dmen....

Weber (R) / Doughty (R)
Keith (L) / Seabrook (R)
Boumeester (L) / Pietrangelo (R)
Subban (R) or Hamhuis (L)

Sure, Hamhuis might be seen as a homer pick, but trust me when i say, he's very good defensively, yet not just a defense only guy. He is a pretty good passer on the breakout and in general is an all around "balanced" guy on D if that's what they're looking for, especially if they're after another lefty? I love PK Subban, with or without the attitude, and if they wanted another speedy guy who hits and can play special teams, he'd be the one.

Something that hasnt' been touched on is the potential chemistry between Boumeester and Pietrangelo. I checked Leftwinglock and in the last 10 games of the season, these two were the most common St Louis defensive pairing. I think that's HUGE moving forward and if they look good in the first half, they'll have a great shot at making this squad! I believe Boumeester was buried on a couple of very bad teams for so many years and that his offensive game never reached what many thought it would and he therefore was written off as overrated. Fact is, he's a very good mobile defenseman with shutdown capabilities and some offense to chip in where needed.

Edited by - Alex116 on 07/25/2013 15:35:17
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  08:36:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agreed with a good chunk of what Beans said, but strongly disagree with his take on Doughty. Doughty did have that early stretch a year ago of very poor play, but excepting that . . . he's been a top all-around defenceman. He is solid defensively.

To answer Beans question on ranking the lefty/righty d-corps . . . man, it's a tough call, and I don't envy it one bit for the coach - but here's my take:

Lefties

#1 Keith (premier offense, proven winner)
#2 M. Staal (this is your premier shut-down Dman with skill and size)
#3 Phaneuf (very good offense, ok defensively, a big body with grit)
#4 Bouwmeester (quite good at all aspects - well rounded, big, will compliment any pairing)
Hamhuis
Vlasic
Alzner
Methot

I am sure there might be a couple of other unnamed d-men in the Hamhuis range, but can't think of them right now.

Righties

#1 Weber (one of the NHL's premier d-men - size, skill, blistering shot, experience on the international stage, most notably 2g4a in 7 games to help lead Canada to Gold in 2010)
#2 Doughty (great offense, very good defence, good physicality)

A lot of the "ties" for me will be decided in the first two months of the season. Real tough to pick one over the other here.
#3 Green (has potential to be the top scoring d-man when healthy. Powerplay QB, blistering shot, amazing skating. Injuries an issue in last two years however)
#3 Pietrangelo (Excellent defence, very good offense, solid big body)

#5 Subban (the reigning Norris trophy winner as the league's top defenceman SHOULD normally be a shoe-in . . . but this was a highly contraversial win for P.K. Nonetheless, he is a great skater with skill, and could be the pp specialist on the team)
#5 Letang (brings everything that PK Subban does, without the controversy - and he does have chemistry with Crosby obviously.)
#5 Seabrook (very solid all-around, excellent complimentary player - very solid defensively. If picked ahead of the others to play with Keith, that is fine with me for a short tournament, and it's probably the right choice. But I am just ranking players here)

Boyle
Hamonic



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  08:45:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the end, here are my D pairings for Team Canada:

M.Staal / Weber
Keith / Seabrook
Phaneuf / Doughty
Pietrangelo

But that is for RIGHT NOW . . . just saying. So many god players means a lot is going to be judged on performance, who is healthy and playing well.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  09:08:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

2 - You said that Boyle and Doughty are 'balanced' defensemen. I disagree. They are offensive defensemen



Beans, I can't disagree more. Along with Chara, Keith, and Weber, Doughty is without a doubt one of the top all-around defensemen in the NHL today. Plays an all around game. 27+ minutes per game, and significant time in both PK and PP roles.

@Slozo - I wonder if Staal's eye injury will be a factor in his selection? How did he do with NYR after coming back?

Edited by - nuxfan on 07/26/2013 09:12:00
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  09:16:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, perhaps my perceptions of Doughty are wrong. I would still label him more of an offensive guy but he does also appear to be strong defensively. I never said he wasn't good defensively nor should the comment that a player is an offensive defenceman automatically label the player as poor defensively.

Just to include by top6-7 and pairings it would be:

Doughty - Weber
(my opinion as the 2 best Canadian defensemen today)
Keith - Seabrook
(consistent NHL pairing, Cups and Gold Medal experience)
Pietrangelo - Bouwmeester
(consistent NHL pairing)
Subban (with M. Staal on the taxi squad)

My group all skate very well, move the puck incredibly well, and are solid on both sides of the puck.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  10:41:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

2 - You said that Boyle and Doughty are 'balanced' defensemen. I disagree. They are offensive defensemen



Beans, I can't disagree more. Along with Chara, Keith, and Weber, Doughty is without a doubt one of the top all-around defensemen in the NHL today. Plays an all around game. 27+ minutes per game, and significant time in both PK and PP roles.

@Slozo - I wonder if Staal's eye injury will be a factor in his selection? How did he do with NYR after coming back?



Marc Staal was very solid in his return - it was deemed a full recovery, so I think it only really hinges on his play after a lay-off, but that should be a moot point for this next season and the Olympics.

In the end, I truly think that if Staal is healthy and playing at the same level as a year and a half ago . . . he's on this team. A premier shutdown forward, who also happens to be well above average on offence. He's head and shoulders (IMHO) above the other top defensive forwards (not counting Weber, as he is just awesome all around, including defensively).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  15:46:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Just to include by top 6-7 and pairings it would be:

Doughty - Weber
(my opinion as the 2 best Canadian defensemen today)
Keith - Seabrook
(consistent NHL pairing, Cups and Gold Medal experience)
Pietrangelo - Bouwmeester
(consistent NHL pairing)
Subban (with M. Staal on the taxi squad)



Really Beans? I mean, you coulda just said "I agree with Alex's picks".

The only difference is in my admittedly biased selection of Hamhuis over Staal as one of the final guys on D. I don't see Staal as much obviously but i do appreciate his game. Staal and Hamhuis are both lefties and play a pretty similar game really. I'd be fine with either making the team and wouldn't have sour grapes if Hamhuis lost out to him. I'd just have to take off my Orca tinted glasses, which by the way, is the most ridiculous of all "tinted" names, and put on my red and white tinted Canadian specs!!!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2013 :  09:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, i agree with Marc Staal...i think he is great.

but ...Phaneuf ???...on a big ice surface ??....he is too slow and can`t keep up on an NHL size ice surface...

Whats he gonna do on the much bigger ice ??

I`m a leaf fan but i call it as i see it.....opposing players blow around Phaneuf all season long, way too slow for the bigger ice........can you also picture him with those bone-head ....poor timing pinches ??.... can you imagine Phaneuf ( being slow of foot ) getting caught and trying to turn and get back to recover ??.......impossible, he just can`t do it.

Phaneuf would be a major liability to team Canada, especially on a large ice surface......i`ve read from a couple of posters about how Phaneuf needs a great d-man to play along side of him....i guess to make him look better..........great players don`t need another great player to make them look good.......great players make other players look good..............in Toronto, Phaneuf should be making Gunnarson or Holzer or ( who - ever ) look great.......it shouldn`t be the other way around but it is.

Phaneuf is OK to a point.....but at 6.5 million per season ??....this is a joke.....he has been voted the most over-rated D-man in the NHL by other NHL players ( his peers )....this sends a real message, the players know.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2013 :  17:36:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If those invites are healthy and ready to play in Sochi, Phaneuf will never make team Canada. Sorry Slozo.

Doughty is a great well rounded defenseman and even though his pick in 2010 was controversial, he was one of the best during the tournament.

In 2010 I probably didn't agree with Seabrook being chosen, and I remember him not playing many minutes. It seemed like Yzerman chose him and the coach didn't really agree on it. But since then, Seabrook won two Stanley Cups and still plays with Keith. In 2014, he will be chosen and he will prove to be a good choice. Seabrook and Keith together are a great pairing and we need that chemistry.

Here are my pairings (It will probably change 10 times until next February)

Weber, Doughty
Keith, Seabrook
Letang, Pietrangelo (I don't see a lot of Pietrangelo, but he seems like a well rounded young defense)
M. Staal
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  11:14:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  14:24:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Does this mean you think Phaneuf is a lock or not? He is of the smaller group of Left handed defenders and has plenty of experience. I think the fact it is on a larger ice surface will prevent him from being selected, that and his poor timing when pinching or laying out a heavy hit, but would understand if he was.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  22:04:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Does this mean you think Phaneuf is a lock or not? He is of the smaller group of Left handed defenders and has plenty of experience. I think the fact it is on a larger ice surface will prevent him from being selected, that and his poor timing when pinching or laying out a heavy hit, but would understand if he was.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Is it ever possible that I write something, and someone doesn't try and put words in my mouth?!? I'm starting to think not . . .

Does this mean that I think Phaneuf is a lock or not . . . where to begin.
First off, I gave MY OPINION and MY LINE-UP - not what I thought the team Canada staff would have.
Secondly, I don't think anyone other than Weber, perhaps Doughty and Keith, are a 'lock'. So no, clearly Phaneuf is not a lock. He is probably longer odds, in fact . . . but he's not a total longshot either IMHO.

I believe everyone is overrating skating speed for defencemen . . . I think it's more pertinent for forwards here. Experience matters though, and having a great all-around game matters, being experienced playing all situations. And he's a tough SOB to play against, perfect fit as a third pairing defender.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  04:50:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the REAL controversy for the Canadian team will be . . . how they will justify leaving off the current Norris trophy winning defenceman?

Does ANYONE have Subban on their lists? Not many that I see, if any . . . and that goes for the commentators and pundits on television and in print as well. What will the backlash and reaction be if/when Subban doesn't make that roster?

OR . . . is team Canada forced to include him in no matter what just because of that trophy?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  07:01:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I too don't see Phaneuf on this team ahead of guys like Bouwmeester simply because I do think skating for defensemen is super important on the big ice. Does anyone remember how painful it was to watch the forwards of every other team skate around the likes of Foote, Pronger, and Regher??

That said, Slozo's opinion is valid and when Phaneuf is on the top of his game, few players are more valuable on the point on the PP. He's a poor man's Canadian Zdeno Chara. Obviously smaller but still a big man who is hard to play against and has a bomb from the point.


To the question of Subban, I think you would get more push back from him not being on the team if he had won the Norris in a full season and he won by a lot. He tied with Letang in point, had an average +/- and 7 of his 11 goals came on the PP. He was 35th in TOI and he played almost 3 times as much on the PP as on the PK.

I don't think anyone will be too upset to not see Subban on the team. He certainly is an offensively focused defensemen and I think guys like Letang and Green have a longer body of work to trust more than Subban.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  09:25:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Does this mean you think Phaneuf is a lock or not? He is of the smaller group of Left handed defenders and has plenty of experience. I think the fact it is on a larger ice surface will prevent him from being selected, that and his poor timing when pinching or laying out a heavy hit, but would understand if he was.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Is it ever possible that I write something, and someone doesn't try and put words in my mouth?!? I'm starting to think not . . .

Does this mean that I think Phaneuf is a lock or not . . . where to begin.
First off, I gave MY OPINION and MY LINE-UP - not what I thought the team Canada staff would have.
Secondly, I don't think anyone other than Weber, perhaps Doughty and Keith, are a 'lock'. So no, clearly Phaneuf is not a lock. He is probably longer odds, in fact . . . but he's not a total longshot either IMHO.

I believe everyone is overrating skating speed for defencemen . . . I think it's more pertinent for forwards here. Experience matters though, and having a great all-around game matters, being experienced playing all situations. And he's a tough SOB to play against, perfect fit as a third pairing defender.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

I was just looking for clarification, not trying to be argumentative. I actually agree with your assessment of Phaneuf. Really wish people wouldn't take comments personally. For the record, I have Subban on my roster on the right side, albeit more than likely on the taxi squad due to his lack of experience, but because he is a powerplay specialist like Phaneuf but faster, who also hits hard with better stats last year, I ranked him above Phaneuf.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/31/2013 09:26:32
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  13:22:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I think the REAL controversy for the Canadian team will be . . . how they will justify leaving off the current Norris trophy winning defenceman?

Does ANYONE have Subban on their lists? Not many that I see, if any . . . and that goes for the commentators and pundits on television and in print as well. What will the backlash and reaction be if/when Subban doesn't make that roster?

OR . . . is team Canada forced to include him in no matter what just because of that trophy?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



I think that says more about how the Norris trophy has become more about recognizing the best "offensive dman" and less about "all around defensemen".

Subban is obviously a gifted offensive dman and an excellent PP specialist...but I don't think I'd qualify him as one of the top-6 all around Canadian defensemen. Every team needs/wants a PP specialist - but if team Canada thinks they can get a strong PP guy in an overall defensive package, Subban will be left off.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  15:56:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.




So, are you claiming to be one of "the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey"? IIRC, you had him in your top 6 or 7, no?
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4583 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  09:03:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You see how Leaf fans are with their "blue-coloured glasses"?!?
(that was for fans of other teams who claim how we always overrate our own players, as if it was endemic to Leaf fans)

The proof for Phaneuf is in the pudding.
Going by most Leaf fans, NO ONE had him in the "possibles" list to go to Sochi . . . and yet the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey DID.

That alone speaks volumes.




So, are you claiming to be one of "the best and brightest minds in Canadian hockey"? IIRC, you had him in your top 6 or 7, no?




Not to repeat myself,
But the proof is int he pudding.

Before the invitee list was put out, I was the only one who put out his name.

That being said, from the choices that Team Canada has . . . it IS quite likely Phaneuf doesn't make this squad.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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