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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2009 : 09:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I still personally see that 3-5 clear mistakes a game. Maybe my eye is being a little more bias, but there are still those plays where he puts himself well out of position for no benefit to the play.
In fact, I will watch the next Calgary game and list out what I see. Both good and bad. Then we can talk more.
Excellent. Also can you do the same for Regehr, Weber, Doughty and Niedermayer?
By the way rushing the puck and being caught up there in a transition is not a mistake if the coach has given the green light to do it. I guarantee Sutter has given that green light. The other night I noticed Jokinen saw Phaneuf jump up in the play and immediately he went back and covered the point. If that is the team system then that play is not a mistake on Phaneuf's part.
Here's a link. Should be plenty there for you to come up with an example of leaving himself out of position. It's 10 minutes of hits. There are plenty more links available as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QPOmZ53IvE
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Edited by - willus3 on 12/13/2009 07:58:56 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 09:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
I'm torn here personally (regarding Phaneuf).
Phaneuf can be caught making silly mistakes at times, which Beans touched on. He plays a physical game, which I like in a D-man, but often times you may find (or I do atleast), that he plays over-physical getting him in to trouble. I also find he will not play physical enough, when it comes to a bigger player. He tends to shy away. (if this makes sense. lol.)
Irvine
You see this is a classic example of what goes on for Phaneuf. He can do nothing right for some people. Beans has said the exact same thing.
He plays too physical or doesn't play physical enough. The guy can't win.
Maybe you and beans could post some youtube links from this season showing what you mean and we can further dissect the issue. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 11:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Forwards:
St. Louis, S. Crosby, J. Iginla,
R. Getzlaf, J. Thornton, D. Heatley,
R. Nash, V. Lecavalier, C. Perry
B. Morrow, P. Marleau, S. Doan
Defence:
S. Niedermayer, M. Green
D. Phaneuf, C. Pronger
J. Bouwmeester, D. Boyle
Goalies:
R. Luongo
M. Brodeur
MA. Fleury
Can't see the upside of switching Getzlaf a natural playmaking centreman to the wing, or of splitting him and Perry. It's already been mention how important chemistry is on these short tournament teams and these guys have been clicking very well this year. Same goes for the pre-made scoring machine from San Jose of Marleau/Thorton/Heatley, Not arguing Marleau's ability to play a fourth line role because he is quite capable of it, but why separate that line? Doesn't make sense too. A better fit in my opinion is keep the San Jose line together and replace Mike RIchards as the centreman on the 4th line taking Lecavilier off the roster. Also return Getzlaf to the third line with Perry. Rick Nash is a lock for the first line with Crosby and Iginla, I don't personally see St. Louis on the team at all but he certainly is not on the first line, if he is it will be as the 13th forward. In the end I think it'll be one of Morrow or Doan on the fourth line but not both. I still think one of those two guys with Richards and Toews is an excellent fourth line.
These defensive pairings don't really make sense. Again I don't see Mike Green on this team either just because of his play in his own end but if he does it'll be as the seventh defencemen and powerplay specialist. If he does make it pairing him with Neidermayer wouldn't make any sense, they are both puck moving defencemen. For me its Boyle or Green, Boyle is stronger defensively while still bringing a strong offensive game, and to have Green on the roster ahead of Duncan Keith is a stretch.
Also I hope the order of your goalies is random and that listing Luongo first isn't indicating he is the starter, that's Marty's no question about it.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 11:24:18
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Ok here is my latest roster. I chose players based on natural position (for 90% of the guys) I also tried to avoid going for the players who just have the most points this season. I based it on tried-and-tested players and those players who have dominated in the last few years. As you can see by the 4th line I chose guys who actually know how to grind it out and battle for a puck (Marleau is a fast SOB and has serious backcheck and shorty potential. He and can fight against another team's top line with ease, not to mention he is a faceoff king - posession is nine-tenths of the law fellas!) Here we go....
Forwards:
St. Louis, S. Crosby, J. Iginla,
R. Getzlaf, J. Thornton, D. Heatley,
R. Nash, V. Lecavalier, C. Perry
B. Morrow, P. Marleau, S. Doan
Defence:
S. Niedermayer, M. Green
D. Phaneuf, C. Pronger
J. Bouwmeester, D. Boyle
Goalies:
R. Luongo
M. Brodeur
MA. Fleury
On the bus:
Lanny McDonald
Leigh.....
I really don't see them splitting up the Nash-Crosby-Iginla line, at least not to start the tournament. Why wouldn't you just have St. Louis as your 3rd line LW and leave Nash with the Crosby unit? Also, if Perry isn't on Getzlaf's line, i don't think he'll be there at all. Not to mention, Getzlaf on a wing just doesn't do it for me? He's 2nd in the league in assists. I don't think Heatley needs two setup guys to feed him and by dropping Getzlaf to the third line, you can pair him up with his regular linemate in Perry.
Funny, i haven't had Lecavalier on my squad at any point, however the more i look at his numbers, the more i realize he's not that far off his usual pace?
I like 90% of the guys you've picked, but would have a couple different ones and a few in different spots. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 19:59:17
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Now Willus, I hope you are not trying to put words into my mouth! I did say that some of Phaneuf's open ice hits are risky. But I never said that the guy should easy up physically nor did I ever say that Phaneuf being physical makes him poor on the defensive end. To the contrary, I agree that Phaneuf can't win physically. Some of his best games I have watched were because of him being physical. Other games I have watched, he played poorly, but not because of his physical play. It is based on his choice when to by physical.
Secondly, I am not sure what link you were intending to post, but the one you did post does not lead to 10 minutes of hits.
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Guest2887
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Posted - 12/13/2009 : 04:59:42
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Nash - Crosby - Iginla
Marleau - Thornton - Heatley
Penner - Getzlaf - Perry
Toews - Richards - Carter
Fisher
Pronger - Niedermayer
Bouwmeester - Green
Phaneuf - Weber
Doughty
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 08:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Now Willus, I hope you are not trying to put words into my mouth! I did say that some of Phaneuf's open ice hits are risky. But I never said that the guy should easy up physically nor did I ever say that Phaneuf being physical makes him poor on the defensive end. To the contrary, I agree that Phaneuf can't win physically. Some of his best games I have watched were because of him being physical. Other games I have watched, he played poorly, but not because of his physical play. It is based on his choice when to by physical.
Secondly, I am not sure what link you were intending to post, but the one you did post does not lead to 10 minutes of hits.
Woops. Edited the link.
You have said that he will quite often leave himself out of position when he goes for the big hit. Then you also criticized him for not being physical along the boards with bigger players.
Also if you could count how many mistakes the other guys I mentioned make next game you watch from them that would be great. Please wear your Phaneuf-critical glasses while doing so.
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Guest9042
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Posted - 12/13/2009 : 12:21:22
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Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Penner-Thornton-Heatley
Lecavalier-Getzlaf-Perry
Doan-Marleau-Richards
(Fisher/Spezza)
Green-Pronger
Niedermayer- Phaneuf
Del Zotto - Doughty
(Boyle)
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 12:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Now Willus, I hope you are not trying to put words into my mouth! I did say that some of Phaneuf's open ice hits are risky. But I never said that the guy should easy up physically nor did I ever say that Phaneuf being physical makes him poor on the defensive end. To the contrary, I agree that Phaneuf can't win physically. Some of his best games I have watched were because of him being physical. Other games I have watched, he played poorly, but not because of his physical play. It is based on his choice when to by physical.
Secondly, I am not sure what link you were intending to post, but the one you did post does not lead to 10 minutes of hits.
Woops. Edited the link.
You have said that he will quite often leave himself out of position when he goes for the big hit. Then you also criticized him for not being physical along the boards with bigger players.
Also if you could count how many mistakes the other guys I mentioned make next game you watch from them that would be great. Please wear your Phaneuf-critical glasses while doing so.
No problem Willus, will do.
And when you watch the next game, could you put on you Phaneuf Man Crush glasses when you watch the other defensemen as well??? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 13:08:43
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I will do that tonight for Regehr.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 21:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9042
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Penner-Thornton-Heatley
Lecavalier-Getzlaf-Perry
Doan-Marleau-Richards
(Fisher/Spezza)
Green-Pronger
Niedermayer- Phaneuf
Del Zotto - Doughty
(Boyle)
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury
Del Zotto? Seriously? Well, if nothing else, it's a new name to throw around? However, i'd throw it straight into the garbage can myself?  |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 21:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9042
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Penner-Thornton-Heatley
Lecavalier-Getzlaf-Perry
Doan-Marleau-Richards
(Fisher/Spezza)
Green-Pronger
Niedermayer- Phaneuf
Del Zotto - Doughty
(Boyle)
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury
Del Zotto? Seriously? Well, if nothing else, it's a new name to throw around? However, i'd throw it straight into the garbage can myself?
? |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 22:01:04
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Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Marleau-Thornton-Heatley
Perry-Getzlaf-Penner
Doan-B.Richards-Morrow
Mike Richards, St. Louis
Niedermayer Pronger
Keith Weber
Boyle Bouwmeester
Green
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury |
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Oilfansince1985
Top Prospect
1 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 00:28:31
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penner has got to be on the team. His play has been steller this year.
He is 4th in goals, 5th in plus minus and 6th in points among canadian players and thats playing for a team in 11th place in the west with no star players to help him out, unlike the players ahead of him, (thornton, heatly, crosby)
Based on his play this year he seems like an obvious pick for the team.
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 06:43:57
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Nash-Crosby-Iginla (look for Iggy or Sid to have the C, or at least an A)
Marleau-Thornton-Heatley (This could even be the 1st line)
Toews-Richards(M)-Carter
Penner-Getzlaf-Perry (At this point based on this season, yes, Penner is in)
Doan-Richards(B) (Brad could crack the 3rd or 4th line if this level of play keeps up)
Pronger-Neidermeyer (Neids could get the C or an A)
Keith-Seabrook (still IMO the best Defensive pairing in the league)
Bouwmeester-Boyle (or sub in Green for either of these guys)
Green
Brodeur (No contest, Marty gets the start)
Fleury (Great season thus far, might steal Roberto's bench spot)
Luongo (Needs to improve to keep the backup job)
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 12:25:47
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if penner is in how can you exculde Cammalleri? i don't get it overall there production is on par and Cammalleri has seen this kind of production for 3 years now?
Pasty |
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Guest9651
( )
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Posted - 12/14/2009 : 12:44:13
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Gents,
It's Stevie Y here.
Here is our team.
Get ready to dominate.
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Staal-Getzlaf-Perry
Heatley-Thornton-Marleau
Morrow-M.Richards-Toews
Stamkos
Pronger-Niedermayer
Keith-Boumeester
Weber-Boyle
Doughty
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury
taxi
Carter
B.Richards
Phaneuf
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 12:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
if penner is in how can you exculde Cammalleri? i don't get it overall there production is on par and Cammalleri has seen this kind of production for 3 years now?
Pasty
I'll give you one quick difference.
One is 6'4" and 245 lbs.
One is 5'9" and 185 lbs
Size does matter. If give Penner the nod on that alone. Even if Penner's production was under Cammellarri's, I take Penner for size and strength. |
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Guest9836
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Posted - 12/14/2009 : 13:11:24
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Just thinking about defence here for a minute.
Now that Mike Green has rounded back into form (leads NHL defenceman in pts, +10, 7th out of all canadian defencemen in TOI) is he not front and center in the picture now. Is he battling Dan Boyle for that offensive PP type guy? And if so, how much further ahead does Boyle's experience put him?
Also Doughty, can he be left off this team? Very young and inexperienced, yes. But he leads all NHL dmen in goals and is up there in points, is he fighting Green and Boyle for that same spot?
Robidas has to be another guy giving Stevie Y grey hairs as to what to do.
What makes this harder is Guys like Weber, Phaneuf, Niedermayer and Pronger are slumping right now.
The only guy I'd say who has played his way to a "locked position" I think is Keith.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it could look like this:
Pronger Boyle
Keith Bouwmeester
Weber Green
Doughty
Niedermayer, Robidas and Seabrook will be very tough decisions...
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Guest9836
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 14:04:42
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Pasty,
I take Penner over Cammaleri for the same reason Beans does. I see Penner's size as the tipping factor here. Big forwards are going to help bulldoze any opposing defence, and Penner is getting really really good at pushing through crowds.
A lot of people will never think he's good enough for the team, but I count myself as a believer. He's a lock on my Team Canada. |
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50brent
Top Prospect
Canada
62 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 14:07:46
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hey just commenting on that last defence post there will be no way that niedrmayer will be kept off team canada unless hes hurt off course and i dont think bouwmester has earned a spot this is how i think it will look.
pronger niedermayer
Boyle Weber
Kieth Seabrook
i no i left green off the list but i think boyle can run the powerplay and so can weber kieth and seabrook so i dont think theres any problem there. |
Edited by - 50brent on 12/14/2009 14:09:01 |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 14:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9836
Just thinking about defence here for a minute.
Now that Mike Green has rounded back into form (leads NHL defenceman in pts, +10, 7th out of all canadian defencemen in TOI) is he not front and center in the picture now. Is he battling Dan Boyle for that offensive PP type guy? And if so, how much further ahead does Boyle's experience put him?
Also Doughty, can he be left off this team? Very young and inexperienced, yes. But he leads all NHL dmen in goals and is up there in points, is he fighting Green and Boyle for that same spot?
Robidas has to be another guy giving Stevie Y grey hairs as to what to do.
What makes this harder is Guys like Weber, Phaneuf, Niedermayer and Pronger are slumping right now.
The only guy I'd say who has played his way to a "locked position" I think is Keith.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it could look like this:
Pronger Boyle
Keith Bouwmeester
Weber Green
Doughty
Niedermayer, Robidas and Seabrook will be very tough decisions...
It's not only Boyle's experience that puts him ahead of Green it's his play in his own end. Green may just be the best offensive defenceman in the game right now but his defensive zone play is still suspect, there were a few times on Saturday vs. the Leafs that Green was caught out of position leading to an odd man rush the otherway. Boyle has a lower plus minus but it's due to the fact that he kills more penalties and is number one in TOI in the league (according to NHL.com Green is 11th). I didnt have him there earlier on but I think Green is now a lock for that 7th spot / power play specialist.
For me the 6th spot now is between 3 guys Phaneuf, Weber, and Seabrook
Pronger, Neidermayer, Bouwmeester, Boyle, and Keith are all locks in my opinion.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 18:25:01
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Couple of things.
Firstly, +/- does not calculate on PK or PP. Unless you get scored on short handed, then it's -1.
Secondly, the only think that will keep Neidermayer and Pronger off this team is injury of their own choice. They are absolutely locks.
Why???
Sure, they might be slumping, but both have been clutch in the big game their entire career. They show up when they need to.
Keith, I call him a lock as well.
I would also put Boyle on the team over Green right now. One has a Cup and plays better defensively. Both are brilliant on the offensive side of the puck.
That leaves 2-3 spots. My personal pick would be Bouwmeester as the 5th.
The 6th and 7th?? Flip a coin between Weber, Seabrook, Green, Phaneuf, Phillips, Regehr, Doughty and 3 or 4 other guys. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 19:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of things.
Firstly, +/- does not calculate on PK or PP. Unless you get scored on short handed, then it's -1.
learn something new everyday
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 11:02:39
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Well, for those of you (and there are still a few it seems) holding out hope that Spezza will make this team, it's all but official now that he won't! Still surprised some kept putting him on this team with the struggles he's had this year?
His knee he "tweaked" last night is apparently worse than first thought. He's out 4-6 weeks apparently and therefore there's no way he's playing in Vancouver come Olympic time.......
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=509966 |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 12:06:11
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With Canada's depth at centre I don't think Spezza had any chance at all even before his horrible start and injury last night.
15 Guy's I'd put ahead of Spezza at center:
Crosby
Thorton
Getzlaf
Toews
Carter
M.Richards
B.Richards
Stamkos
Fisher
E.Staal
J.Staal
Lecavilier
Bergeron
Roy
Arnott
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Guest8369
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Posted - 12/15/2009 : 12:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
With Canada's depth at centre I don't think Spezza had any chance at all even before his horrible start and injury last night.
15 Guy's I'd put ahead of Spezza at center:
Crosby
Thorton
Getzlaf
Toews
Carter
M.Richards
B.Richards
Stamkos
Fisher
E.Staal
J.Staal
Lecavilier
Bergeron
Roy
Arnott
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Comments like this just piss me off. You take the passing Center piece of one of the most dominating lines in hockey for the last 5 years and compare him to a bunch of players who in there best years have stats which compare to a bad year for Spezza. I have highlighted all such players. The remainder of the players left, half of which are having career years now or are in the twighlight of there careers.
The only reason I can see for all this hate on Spezza is he hasn't found chemistry with his current linemates. For the record Michalek and Cheechoo started lined up next to Spezza on the top line. For from the Quality of Alfredson and Heatley. Now That he is injured he is likely off the Olympic roster but he is not as bad as you claim him to be. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 13:22:11
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quote:
Comments like this just piss me off. You take the passing Center piece of one of the most dominating lines in hockey for the last 5 years and compare him to a bunch of players who in there best years have stats which compare to a bad year for Spezza. I have highlighted all such players. The remainder of the players left, half of which are having career years now or are in the twighlight of there careers.
The only reason I can see for all this hate on Spezza is he hasn't found chemistry with his current linemates. For the record Michalek and Cheechoo started lined up next to Spezza on the top line. For from the Quality of Alfredson and Heatley. Now That he is injured he is likely off the Olympic roster but he is not as bad as you claim him to be.
So if Spezza is such a dominating passing centre then why can't he turn Jonathan Cheechoo into a Richard trophy winner like Thorton did. Maybe, just maybe Spezza has been overated since he was a 16 year old with the Mississauga Ice dogs through to when he was being carried by Alfredsson and Heatley.
Arnott captain of his team and a Ring
Roy 3 less pts last year without the assitance of Heatley and Alfredsson
Toews & Carter - younger but have shown enough leadership to be named Captains of their team, Spezza has proven himself to be nothing but a whiner.
Carter and Stamkos - both far better offensive players than Spezza. Since last years all star break Stamkos is scoring on par with the Heatley's Kovalchuk's and Ovechkin's of the league. Carter scored 46 last year something Spezza has never come close to. Carter is slupming this year too and he is still outscoring Spezza by 6 pts.
Fisher - I'm a leaf fan and even I can see he is the heart and soul of your team he's been hidden behind the big 3 forever, he is much more valuable to the Sens than Spezza.
J.Staal - Ring
Bergeron - even with a mushy head has been on par or better than Spezza
Even without defending these picks there are 6 guys you left ahead of him which means he's nowhere near the calibre to play on Team Canada. Aside from maybe Arnott none of these guys are in the twilight of thier career, Crosby, Getzlaf, Staal, B. Richards and Lecavilier all have rings too. Not gonna lie I've hated Spezza since he was a junior but the departure of Heatley has finally shown the weakness of his game.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
Edited by - Tiller33 on 12/15/2009 13:28:21 |
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Guest0851
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Posted - 12/15/2009 : 19:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
So if Spezza is such a dominating passing centre then why can't he turn Jonathan Cheechoo into a Richard trophy winner like Thorton did. Maybe, just maybe Spezza has been overated since he was a 16 year old with the Mississauga Ice dogs through to when he was being carried by Alfredsson and Heatley.
Nor did Thornton after the 1st year. If Cheechoo couldn't do it with Thornton in years 2-4, is it Spezza's fault or Cheechoo's? I believe the words you are looking for Cheechoo is "flash in the pan" or "one year wonder".
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Arnott captain of his team and a Ring
He is having a good year and what is his points this year vs. Spezza. Let's compare peak values. Spezza is the better player.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Roy 3 less pts last year without the assitance of Heatley and Alfredsson
You're right Roy only has Vanek instead of Heatley. Vanek is no sniper. He only scored 40+ goals in a season. Those guys are a dime a dozen.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Toews & Carter - younger but have shown enough leadership to be named Captains of their team, Spezza has proven himself to be nothing but a whiner.
Only from a Leafs fan is there a comment like this. When has Spezza ever whined about anything that Toews and Carter hasn't. Leafs fans think Spezza is whiny and selfish but got nothing to back up this statement other than "look at those silly drop passes". In Leafs nation, drop passes are signs of a selfish player. Carter is scoring centre not a set up centre. If you can tell me what exactly have Toews and Carter done that Spezza hasn't yet? Captain of the team, won't happen as long as Alfie is in Ottawa. Getting the A isn't enough is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Carter and Stamkos - both far better offensive players than Spezza. Since last years all star break Stamkos is scoring on par with the Heatley's Kovalchuk's and Ovechkin's of the league. Carter scored 46 last year something Spezza has never come close to. Carter is slupming this year too and he is still outscoring Spezza by 6 pts.
So Carter being a flash in the pan is ok, but Spezza bad year is not. Gee, no bias here considering the last paragraph. Stamkos, what exactly has he accomplished that Spezza hasn't yet? Oh right you mean only this year as a comparo. Forget the rookie season. That's called being selective in your argument. Leafs fans are good about that. Yes Montreal suck, Ottawa suck but guess what they are both more successful than Toronto the last 10 yrs.
I shudder when Toronto wins a cup (please if there is a God, make it never because the world will not hear anything but this), the selective arguments will only revolve around that year I'm sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Fisher - I'm a leaf fan and even I can see he is the heart and soul of your team he's been hidden behind the big 3 forever, he is much more valuable to the Sens than Spezza.
Fish has always been under rated. He always had potential and showed flashes. This is the first time he has kept it up and not get injured part way.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
J.Staal - Ring
J. Staal's combined output is less than Spezza's last 3 years. Oh don't forget how Staal got his ring. He carried the team unlike some slackers named Sid and Geno to the cup.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Bergeron - even with a mushy head has been on par or better than Spezza
There goes that selective argument again. The sentence should be finished off with "this year."
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Even without defending these picks there are 6 guys you left ahead of him which means he's nowhere near the calibre to play on Team Canada. Aside from maybe Arnott none of these guys are in the twilight of thier career, Crosby, Getzlaf, Staal, B. Richards and Lecavilier all have rings too. Not gonna lie I've hated Spezza since he was a junior but the departure of Heatley has finally shown the weakness of his game.
Note some of the above comments were drooling with sarcasm. If you can't figure which ones, then just cheer go leafs go and proceed to the next post.
In all seriousness, Spezza will not make the team this year even without injury. But don't forget he was good enough to be on the taxi squad at the previous Olympics. Not too shabby don't ya think? Give credit where credit is due and take off the blue tinted hate glasses. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 20:36:11
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So you're argument is he wasn't good enough to be on a team that finished seventh in Turin? Makes sense... You know who else was on that Taxi squad, Bryan McCabe another over rated player, and don't call it sour grapes he was garbage here too.
So basically because I'm a Leaf fan makes Spezza a star...
I'm not gonna go over all those players again but in my opinion they are all better players and more valuable than Spezza.
Don't forget I get all the Sens highlights here in the GTA too and for the last 4 years not a week has gone by without a clip of Spezza riding the bike after a loss and taking Zero credit for any of it. He fed Emery, and Paddock to the media for their failure to win a cup, took a little more than Emery's "night life activities" to loose with the talent that team had. Only since his play has bottomed out with the departure of Heatley has he been forced to admit his sub-par play.
Make fun of the Leafs all you want it's besides the point, Spezza is an over-rated player and always has been, In my opinion he does that team more bad than good and they should have traded him 2 years ago.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
Edited by - Tiller33 on 12/15/2009 21:35:47 |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 21:27:00
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Over rated? Spezza? I guess all players who average over a point per game in there career are over rated right tiller? While I didn't see him on team Canada this year because there happen to be other guys you may think our over rated named Thornton, Crosby, getzlaf, Richards ahead of him. But to call him over rated is ridiculous.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 22:04:44
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He's over-rated plain and simple and to compare him to Thorton, Crosby or Getzlaf is laughable. Richards has more character soaking up his jock strap after a hard practice than Spezza has shown in his entrie career. Throw his stats around all you want I maintain that Heatley and Alfredsson carried him since the lock-out and that this year's play is the inevitable outcome of Heatley leaving.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 22:10:02
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Ya Tiller, I have to agree that these are some pretty clear biases towards Spezza. Don't get me wrong, he is not Joe Thornton or Marc Savard. However, one could argue that in the world of the set up Centre, he is a pretty solid #3 or #4 in the league.
Is he having a stellar season? Nope. Is he deserving of an Olympic spot?? Nope. But overrated and a hack?? C'mon. Talking about him feeding Paddock and Emery to the media??? Emery got everything he deserved and did it all on his own. Paddock, well if you don't win to the expectation of your GM, you get fired. Spezza is singled out for that???
One thing that people fail to remember about Spezza is that in his past 4 season he has point totals of 90, 87, 92, and 73. More than respecatable numbers and with the exception of last season that's good for top 10 in the league. Furthermore, in thoses seasons he played 68, 67, 76, and 82 games.
So not only are his point totals impressive, his PPG totals are 1.18/game. This those same 4 seasons, Joe Thornton has a PPG average of 1.28. So in the grand scheme of things, Thornton averages one more point every 10 games than Spezza. Marc Savard and Spezza are on an even keel as Savard has a 1.12 PPG average.
Let's drop one more tasty nugget. There are only 5 players in the NHL today (Thornton, Malkin, Crosby, Recchi, Weight) that have more assists in a single season that Sezza's 71. Let's also remember he followed that up with 58 and 59 respectively.
Now there is no doubt that he had a really poor start to the season and that has snowballed. He's well below his regular production and his injury will hurt even more. Overall, complete players I would agree with about 1/2 of your list of better centers. However,Spezza's name does belong on that list. And if you are talking about pure passing/set up type centres, Spezza's name belongs in the top 3ish.
I gotta tell ya, he is an absolute phenom if he is over rated. A complete fluke to average more than a point a game over 4 seasons. Let's not forget he's still only 26 years old. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 01:02:59
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Tiller, i gotta agree with Beans et al here. While he's def having an off year (and killing one of my pool teams while at it ), i think you're being a little hard on him (Spezza).
No way some of those guys you listed would be taken over Spezza for Team Canada even with his poor season!
I will give you credit for one thing, you admit you don't like him as a player and have always felt he's overrated. I really felt that way too in his early years and never thought he'd amount to anything, however, as i watched him play more, i began to appreciate the skills he possesses.
Any way you look at it, i'd bet you wouldn't dislike him so much if he were Kessel's center? |
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Guest8369
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Posted - 12/16/2009 : 09:22:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Tiller, i gotta agree with Beans et al here. While he's def having an off year (and killing one of my pool teams while at it), i think you're being a little hard on him (Spezza).
No way some of those guys you listed would be taken over Spezza for Team Canada even with his poor season!
I will give you credit for one thing, you admit you don't like him as a player and have always felt he's overrated. I really felt that way too in his early years and never thought he'd amount to anything, however, as i watched him play more, i began to appreciate the skills he possesses.
Any way you look at it, i'd bet you wouldn't dislike him so much if he were Kessel's center?
Nailed it Alex. That's the truth, cause if he were a Leaf centering the top line, all we would hear from Tiller is how hes the second coming of the great one.
To be honest last year Spezza's production dropped, but Heatley's production dropped more and that was due to a change in style of play required by both new coaches which required them to back check more. Prior to his injury Spezza had scored 3 goals in 5 and 4 points in the last 5 games. He was starting to gel with Michalek, Kovalev and a host of rotating linemates on the top line, which incidentally was the reason for his slow start to the season. Plus it was rumoured he was nursing an injury from training camp for the first month or so. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 09:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8369
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Tiller, i gotta agree with Beans et al here. While he's def having an off year (and killing one of my pool teams while at it), i think you're being a little hard on him (Spezza).
No way some of those guys you listed would be taken over Spezza for Team Canada even with his poor season!
I will give you credit for one thing, you admit you don't like him as a player and have always felt he's overrated. I really felt that way too in his early years and never thought he'd amount to anything, however, as i watched him play more, i began to appreciate the skills he possesses.
Any way you look at it, i'd bet you wouldn't dislike him so much if he were Kessel's center?
Nailed it Alex. That's the truth, cause if he were a Leaf centering the top line, all we would hear from Tiller is how hes the second coming of the great one.
To be honest last year Spezza's production dropped, but Heatley's production dropped more and that was due to a change in style of play required by both new coaches which required them to back check more. Prior to his injury Spezza had scored 3 goals in 5 and 4 points in the last 5 games. He was starting to gel with Michalek, Kovalev and a host of rotating linemates on the top line, which incidentally was the reason for his slow start to the season. Plus it was rumoured he was nursing an injury from training camp for the first month or so.
Sorry last was mine |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 13:01:57
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Never denied the bias, said from the start I have hated him since junior. And Josh/Alex if he were playing for the Leafs believe me I wouldn't be a fan, putting the blue and white on doesn't make him a good player if that were true we wouldn't be so horrible most years. Matt Stajan has 26 pts playing with Kessel so I'm sure Spezza could too and I don't see any "Matt Stajan Elite #1 Centreman Threads".
Say what you will, throw up all the stats, I still think his stock is way over-rated, and that without 2 elite linemates he will always struggle. And as far as quoting the stats of his last 5 games thats a bit of a joke, they were against the Hurricanes. Flyers, Ducks, Leafs and Canadiens none of which are in a playoff spot, not to mention the fact that I instantly got carved for stating players that are having a "career" year as better.
And Beans of course he isnt as good as Crosby or Thorton but guess what he makes comparable money at $7 million a year so he should be comparable in talent and isn't. He is a top ten centreman at best:
Crosby - $8.7 million
Savard - $8 million next year (4 million cap hit)
Thornton - $7.2 million
Getzlaf - $5.325 million
Datsyuk - $6.7 million
H. Sedin - $6.1 million
Stastny - $6.6 million
B. Richards - $7.8 million
Backstrom - heading to free agency but he'll be in the 5.5 -7.5 range, if you don't think so you probably can't describe what a puck looks like either
Every last one of these guys is better than Spezza
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 13:38:50
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Ok Tiller, let's look at this another way.
Find me a player in the past decade that has 90+ points without an elite or minimally higher teir linemate??
You are blaming Spezza for who he plays with??
And although I don't disagree with most of your picks as players I too would take over Spezza, his name still belongs.
And I take Spezza over Savard (who I consider a little over rated)as well as I take Spezza over any one of the Swedish Sisters. I might even argue in taking Spezza over Stastny, but that would be close.
I would take Datsuyk, Crosby, Thornton, Getzlaf, Richards, and Backstrom over Spezza.
However, if you are including his name along these elite players, are you not indirectly saying he's an elite player??
Top 10 centreman hey??
30 teams, 4 starting centres per team. Total of 120 day to day centres in the NHL. If Spezza is in the top 10 that makes him in the top 8% of NHL Centre's.
Is that not elite??
And Spezza with Kessel would be a nice fit. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 15:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I take Spezza over any one of the Swedish Sisters.
And Spezza with Kessel would be a nice fit.
OK if i'm getting ripped for Toronto bias that is straight up Western bias. Sedin's best linemate is Anson Carter so i think that speaks for itself.
You want me to name guys in the last decade with 90+ who played with garbage - Jarome Iginla, won the Art Ross with Craig Conroy centring him and 90+ again in 08 with no line mates, Jaromir Jagr won 2 Art Ross Trophy's after Francis and Lemieux left and scored 90+ twice with the Rangers with Michael Nylander centring him. Thorton scored 100+ while getting Glen Murray to his only year over 70 pts. Pavol Demitra did it with the hapless Blues in '03 ... Keep going? Ok ... Eric Staal scored 100 playing with Whitney and Cole, Olli Jokkinen did it in FLA with Marty Gelinas and the post "Steve Moore incident" Bertuzzi, Last year Getzlaf had 91 next guy on the ducks (Perry) had 72.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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2010 Team Canada Roster 
