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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
right now could someone tell me why Dustin Penner or Mike Cammalleri are not even being mentioned i have both of them and Robidas on my team
Richards is playing sub par hockey and imo is not on this team not even a reserve
Pasty
Both Penner and Cammalleri have been mentioned on this post. Big arguement with regards to Penner. Good point on Robidas. He is an unheralded and premier offensive Dman. This country has alot of premier dmen though, so its not personal, just hockey. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:07:43
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now after carefull thought i have picked a team i think can win a gold medal, keeping in mind two things that have been overlooked in past years, A. the need for role players B. Takeing a player who is hot over a household name that you would simply expect to be there, so here it goes my team:
Crosby Iginla Cammalleri
Thornton Nash Heatly
Marleau Morrow Doan
Geztlaf Perry Penner
extra, Stamkos Fisher
Pronger Neidermayer
Robidas Weaber
Keith Bouwmeester
extras Green Boyle
Goalies Brodeur
Fleury
Luongo
Pasty |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:25:34
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Penner a month ago was a flash in the pan but that flame is still burning bright.
He is getting goals hand over fist, producing goals in the same clip as the likes of the big gun goal scorers for Canada.He has 2 more goals and 3 more even strength goals than the consensus 2nd best goal scorer for Canada in Nash, and he has remained consistant even with Ales Hemsky missing the past 8ish games.
I know it's still a stretch but c'mon. One has to admit that a 6'4, 235 lbs goal scorer has a shot at seeing the real Maple Leaf on the front of their sweater come February??
I am starting a petition. Penner for Team Canada. I bet I can beat Balsillie's weak a$$ 7 for Canada thing he did in the summer!!!
Ok, maybe not. But I bet it's more likely to see success from my petition than from his!! |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:27:59
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really? not even in your top 10 canadian defensemen. thats interesting. i would like to know who u have in front of seabrook.
just to compare more stats. bouwmeester has 14 points this year, seabrook has 13. but points are not everything. bouwmeester has a plus/minus of 14, seabrook has a 7. seabrook has 72 hits this year, bouwmeester 33. bouwmeester has 54 blocks, 22 giveaways and 6 take aways. seabrook has 55 blocks, 18 givaways and 9 takeaways.
very even, but as u pointed out seabrook plays with keith, bouwmeester does not, but nonetheless seabrook is definitley in my top 10 canadian defensemen. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Penner a month ago was a flash in the pan but that flame is still burning bright.
He is getting goals hand over fist, producing goals in the same clip as the likes of the big gun goal scorers for Canada.He has 2 more goals and 3 more even strength goals than the consensus 2nd best goal scorer for Canada in Nash, and he has remained consistant even with Ales Hemsky missing the past 8ish games.
I know it's still a stretch but c'mon. One has to admit that a 6'4, 235 lbs goal scorer has a shot at seeing the real Maple Leaf on the front of their sweater come February??
I am starting a petition. Penner for Team Canada. I bet I can beat Balsillie's weak a$$ 7 for Canada thing he did in the summer!!!
Ok, maybe not. But I bet it's more likely to see success from my petition than from his!!
What about Cammy same amount of goals as Penner 3 rd most among Canadian born players if this guy keeps this pace up he has to be on this team!
Pasty |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Penner a month ago was a flash in the pan but that flame is still burning bright.
He is getting goals hand over fist, producing goals in the same clip as the likes of the big gun goal scorers for Canada.He has 2 more goals and 3 more even strength goals than the consensus 2nd best goal scorer for Canada in Nash, and he has remained consistant even with Ales Hemsky missing the past 8ish games.
I know it's still a stretch but c'mon. One has to admit that a 6'4, 235 lbs goal scorer has a shot at seeing the real Maple Leaf on the front of their sweater come February??
I am starting a petition. Penner for Team Canada. I bet I can beat Balsillie's weak a$$ 7 for Canada thing he did in the summer!!!
Ok, maybe not. But I bet it's more likely to see success from my petition than from his!!
What about Cammy same amount of goals as Penner 3 rd most among Canadian born players if this guy keeps this pace up he has to be on this team!
Pasty
Cammy is too small. Biggest longshot of the list you gave. Its like offering Kariya a spot, very risky. You take the risk at the NHL level but in a tournament and with the talent base available I'd say there are better player to choose from. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Penner a month ago was a flash in the pan but that flame is still burning bright.
He is getting goals hand over fist, producing goals in the same clip as the likes of the big gun goal scorers for Canada.He has 2 more goals and 3 more even strength goals than the consensus 2nd best goal scorer for Canada in Nash, and he has remained consistant even with Ales Hemsky missing the past 8ish games.
I know it's still a stretch but c'mon. One has to admit that a 6'4, 235 lbs goal scorer has a shot at seeing the real Maple Leaf on the front of their sweater come February??
I am starting a petition. Penner for Team Canada. I bet I can beat Balsillie's weak a$$ 7 for Canada thing he did in the summer!!!
Ok, maybe not. But I bet it's more likely to see success from my petition than from his!!
What about Cammy same amount of goals as Penner 3 rd most among Canadian born players if this guy keeps this pace up he has to be on this team!
Pasty
Cammy is too small. Biggest longshot of the list you gave. Its like offering Kariya a spot, very risky. You take the risk at the NHL level but in a tournament and with the talent base available I'd say there are better player to choose from.
too small come on,, he has 17 goals this year but he overachieving this is the only year he has ever played this well after all he s too small,,,, come on he s been in the top 10 canadian scorers the last two years he plays a very gritty game and is tough skates extremly well and his effort level is as high as anyones,,, this guy deserves a spot on this team,,
Pasty |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Penner a month ago was a flash in the pan but that flame is still burning bright.
He is getting goals hand over fist, producing goals in the same clip as the likes of the big gun goal scorers for Canada.He has 2 more goals and 3 more even strength goals than the consensus 2nd best goal scorer for Canada in Nash, and he has remained consistant even with Ales Hemsky missing the past 8ish games.
I know it's still a stretch but c'mon. One has to admit that a 6'4, 235 lbs goal scorer has a shot at seeing the real Maple Leaf on the front of their sweater come February??
I am starting a petition. Penner for Team Canada. I bet I can beat Balsillie's weak a$$ 7 for Canada thing he did in the summer!!!
Ok, maybe not. But I bet it's more likely to see success from my petition than from his!!
What about Cammy same amount of goals as Penner 3 rd most among Canadian born players if this guy keeps this pace up he has to be on this team!
Pasty
Cammy is too small. Biggest longshot of the list you gave. Its like offering Kariya a spot, very risky. You take the risk at the NHL level but in a tournament and with the talent base available I'd say there are better player to choose from.
too small come on,, he has 17 goals this year but he overachieving this is the only year he has ever played this well after all he s too small,,,, come on he s been in the top 10 canadian scorers the last two years he plays a very gritty game and is tough skates extremly well and his effort level is as high as anyones,,, this guy deserves a spot on this team,,
Pasty
Dont need anymore goal scorers. Need Role Players and if he is invited good for him. I'm just saying why I wouldn't invite him. I'm not saying he isn't a great hockey player, because clearly he is. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:26:01
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you bring the best goal scorers though right?? hmmm right now he is the 4th best Canadian born goal scorer so,,,,, yeah he comes and he should play in a scoring role and then we take the best role players to fill the third checking line,,,
Pasty |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:40:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
you bring the best goal scorers though right?? hmmm right now he is the 4th best Canadian born goal scorer so,,,,, yeah he comes and he should play in a scoring role and then we take the best role players to fill the third checking line,,,
Pasty
By putting Cammy onthe 1st line you are suggesting Marleau for the 3rd line and Getzlaf and Perry for the 4th. Maybe you dont see why I disagree with this, but I do. But again, so what. If he makes the team good on him. I am just saying its a long shot. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
you bring the best goal scorers though right?? hmmm right now he is the 4th best Canadian born goal scorer so,,,,, yeah he comes and he should play in a scoring role and then we take the best role players to fill the third checking line,,,
Pasty
By putting Cammy onthe 1st line you are suggesting Marleau for the 3rd line and Getzlaf and Perry for the 4th. Maybe you dont see why I disagree with this, but I do. But again, so what. If he makes the team good on him. I am just saying its a long shot.
just to clarify i only have him where he is because i find that is where he fits best obviously my checking line is Marleau centering morrow and doan
I want Thornton and Heatley together and Nash has played well in the past with Heatley so i have them together,,, then i reunite Perry Geztlaf and Penner,,, and the it falls to Iginla playing with Crosby and Cammalleri,,, reuniting Cammy and Iggy,,, if you notice all my lines have players playing in their natural position and with some connection to their linemates with the exception of my checking line
Pasty |
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Guest2642
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Posted - 12/10/2009 : 17:33:23
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He may not be playing his best hockey right now, but i still fully expect Mike Richards to make the club as the 4th line center.
As far as Brad Richards, i'd definitely 100% have him on the team. He can play LW if needed, and he just brings so much to the table. A great 2-way player, terrific work ethic, and has a long history of stepping up his play on the big stage. Going back to the the QMJHL playoffs (MVP), Memorial Cup (MVP), the 2004 Stanley Cup (MVP), etc. He's been great in every playoffs he's appeared in in the NHL, and he was Canada's leading scorer at the 2006 Olympics (maybe the World Cup in '06 too, i'd have to look that one up as i'm not sure).
And on top of all that, he's off to an incredible start this season. If he's still playing this well when the team is picked in a couple weeks time, i think it'll be hard for Yzerman & co. to keep him off it. |
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Guest2642
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Posted - 12/10/2009 : 17:39:25
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First off i wouldn't have Mike Cammalleri on the team, he's a great player but Canada is just too deep up front.
But saying he's too small for the team, c'mon. You mentioned Kariya in the same post, well he's a player of similar stature as Cammalleri who seemed to fair pretty well playing at the 2002 Olympics. Kariya scored one of the most memorable goals in Canadian history in the gold medal game. Size certainly didn't hinder Kariya's abilities at those games!! If anything i'd say size will be less of a factor in the Olympics opposed to the NHL. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:05:47
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My revised team .. without even looking at my old one
Forwards
Nash - Crosby - St. Louis
Heatley- Thornton - Iginla
C. Perry - Getzlaf - E. Staal
Morrow - M. Richards - Marleau
Ex. Stamkos, Lecavalier
Defense
Niedermayer - Pronger
Weber - Boyle
Keith - Bouwmeester
Extra - Green or Seabrook
Goalies
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 23:44:42
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Lots of interesting thoughts and a few "new" names thrown about in Cammalleri and Bergeron. I too don't see Cammy making it though i will say, i'm very impressed with his play thus far in Montreal. Considering he's had linemates switched a fair bit due to injuries and such, he's really putting up some impressive numbers. I always thought he was simply benefitting from good linemates in the past, such as Iggy last year. Even in LA, although young, he saw time with guys like Frolov and Kopitar. Prob not gonna make this team, but gotta give him the respect he deserves. He's definitely deserving of consideration at this point.
Bergeron Beans? Well, it's a shame he went through that concussion thing. Who knows just how good he'd be right now. I don't though, see him even being in the mix at this point?
Penner continues to impress for sure. Be real interesting to see if Stevie Y considers him for the spot with Getzlaf and Perry, assuming they both make it? Chemistry seems to HUGE this time around, at least as far as much of the predictions go? I really wonder if Thornton would be such a lock if the Heatley trade hadn't happened? Who knows, it could be Heatley / Spezza / ? we're all considering for line 2 had that trade not happened? I mean, for a long time, most considered Thornton's lack of production under pressure to be his achilles heal and figured he wouldn't make it. Now, he's considered a "lock"?
Really think we should have some sort of contest to see who can pick the closest to the final roster? Not sure how we could do it or reward the winner, but it'd make it real interesting!
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Guest9321
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Posted - 12/11/2009 : 04:01:26
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what are u smoking???????? whats with that d? the frst 2 i agree with but the rest are a joke. what about d. keith or d.daughty, j.bouwemeester, m.green. you're stoned buddy. keep smoking CRACK !!!!!!!!!
Here’s my picks.
Forwards
Crosby, Iginla, Lecavalier, Spezza, Heatley, Thornton, Getzlaf, St. Louis, Savard, Staal, Nash, Smyth
Defence
Pronger, Phaneuf, Phillips, Campbell, Redden, Jovanovski
Goalies
Luongo, Brodeur, Ward
I’ve left guys like Niedermayer, Brindamour, and Shanahan off the list because I’m not sure if they will have retired by then.
Go Wings Go!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 08:08:17
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Guest9321....
You really need to use the quote feature better. It took me too long to figure out who you were referring to then i finally saw the "quote/" at the bottom and realized it was the OP.
BTW, you gotta keep in mind, this post from the OP was from almost 2 freakin' years ago!!!
You really ought to calm down a bit. These rosters are peoples' opinions and obviously they're gonna differ from poster to poster. You have Doughty on your short list. I suppose back in Jan of 08 when this thread was started that the OP should have had him on there too?  Even Duncan Keith wasn't on the radar back then. Are you some sort of psychic? How'd you know they'd be this good back then??? 
Think before you speak type............ |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by sharksfan44
the thing is though, its not like seabrook is SO much worse than bouwmeester. I think the same could be said about seabrook and that he does a lot of things that you cannot see on the scoresheet. I really do believe that seabrook is just as good as bouwmeester, especially when he is playing with keith. thats just me though.
I must disagree. I put Bouwmeester in the top 5-10 defensemen in the league of any nationality. I don't even put Seabrook in the 10 best Canadian defensemen.
Skating alone is a tie break. The only defensemen in the NHL today that skate nearly as well as Bouwmeester are Neidermayer and Brian Campbell. Furthermore, Seabrook has the benefit of playing with a phenom in Ducan Keith. Bouwmeester is often play with a defensively liability in either Phaneuf or Giordano.
I'll give you one guess who is 2nd in the league in both +/- and TOI.
I love when people prove they have no idea what they are talking about.
Phaneuf plays with Bouwmeester on the powerplay only. Other than that Regehr is Phaneuf's partner. That pairing by the way is the pair that Sutter has been using against the opposition's top lines. Not Bouwmeester. In fact that pairing is responsible for shutting out SanJose's top line(Thornton, Heatley, Marleau) which is the first time that has happened in over a month. The last game they played against Atlanta Phaneuf was tasked with Kovalchuk who he did a fantastic job against. Kovalchuk had one shot all game. Phaneuf is not a defensive liability.
If you want to go on spewing bs about players, I WILL call you on it. Especially players I watch quite closely, like Phaneuf and Bouwmeester. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sharksfan44
really? not even in your top 10 canadian defensemen. thats interesting. i would like to know who u have in front of seabrook.
just to compare more stats. bouwmeester has 14 points this year, seabrook has 13. but points are not everything. bouwmeester has a plus/minus of 14, seabrook has a 7. seabrook has 72 hits this year, bouwmeester 33. bouwmeester has 54 blocks, 22 giveaways and 6 take aways. seabrook has 55 blocks, 18 givaways and 9 takeaways.
very even, but as u pointed out seabrook plays with keith, bouwmeester does not, but nonetheless seabrook is definitley in my top 10 canadian defensemen.
Bouwmeester not in your top 4?? Who are above him then?
Pronger is number one on that team stats are one thing but the intagibles Pronger brings aren't matched by any other Canadian D-man. Bouwmeester is the number 2 guy flat out. Like beans mention he is one of the best skating defencemen in the league and is an excellent penalty killing defencemen. I've said it from the begining Pronger and Bouwmeester are the best shut down pair available to any country. Pronger's stay at home, Bouwmeester's break out ability and both of them are beasts Bouwmeester at 6'4" 212lbs, Pronger at 6'6" 223lbs. Thats the kind of pairing you want taking on Ovechkin/Malkin/Kovalchuck.
As for the top ten Canadian defencemen unlike, Beans I think Seabrook is in the top ten but maybe one day he will be on Bouwmeester's level but he certainly isn't there yet.
Here's a link for the current CTV power rankings for D-men:
http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/news/newsid=22164.html?cid=rsstsn
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
Edited by - Tiller33 on 12/11/2009 10:51:45 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
First of all, when was Phaneuf ever injured?? Are we talking about the 5 regular season games missed in 4 seasons?? Or the "upper body/head injury" that kept him out of a couple of playoff games??
Late October of last season he sustained a hip injury that required surgery. He opted to play the entire season and repair it in the off season. It affected his mobility. It was very visible that he did not have the explosive first few strides he normally did. |
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Guest0595
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Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:59:40
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| ur dumb gretzky isnt even picking the team this olympics |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0595
ur dumb gretzky isnt even picking the team this olympics
Thread started in 08 slappy before the Executive Director was announced
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by sharksfan44
the thing is though, its not like seabrook is SO much worse than bouwmeester. I think the same could be said about seabrook and that he does a lot of things that you cannot see on the scoresheet. I really do believe that seabrook is just as good as bouwmeester, especially when he is playing with keith. thats just me though.
I must disagree. I put Bouwmeester in the top 5-10 defensemen in the league of any nationality. I don't even put Seabrook in the 10 best Canadian defensemen.
Skating alone is a tie break. The only defensemen in the NHL today that skate nearly as well as Bouwmeester are Neidermayer and Brian Campbell. Furthermore, Seabrook has the benefit of playing with a phenom in Ducan Keith. Bouwmeester is often play with a defensively liability in either Phaneuf or Giordano.
I'll give you one guess who is 2nd in the league in both +/- and TOI.
I love when people prove they have no idea what they are talking about.
Phaneuf plays with Bouwmeester on the powerplay only. Other than that Regehr is Phaneuf's partner. That pairing by the way is the pair that Sutter has been using against the opposition's top lines. Not Bouwmeester. In fact that pairing is responsible for shutting out SanJose's top line(Thornton, Heatley, Marleau) which is the first time that has happened in over a month. The last game they played against Atlanta Phaneuf was tasked with Kovalchuk who he did a fantastic job against. Kovalchuk had one shot all game. Phaneuf is not a defensive liability.
If you want to go on spewing bs about players, I WILL call you on it. Especially players I watch quite closely, like Phaneuf and Bouwmeester.
Willus, you can say you are calling me on what ever you want, but don't act like your opinion is the only one that is correct.
I can call anyone I want to a defensive liability. If you agree or not is really not relevant. And as I read through your post, I fail to see how 2 games though 28 makes a player good defensively. As much as I disagree with a +/- stat in comparing players, it is relative when those players on are the same team. +14 for Bouwmeester vs +4 for Phaneuf. My statement clearly said Bouwmeester plays with both Phaneuf and Giordano, not exclusively with Phaneuf. And there are times other than the PP where they are on the ice at the same time. I know that Bouwmeester's regular partner appears to be Giordano and that Phaneuf plays mostly with Regehr. But they will play together at times.
My point was simply that Bouwmeester does not have the benefit of playing with a brillaint shutdown defensemen in Duncan Keith as Seabrook does. Maybe the Phaneuf is a defensive liability was a bit agressive. But let's not put the cart before the horse. There are not too many conversations about the leagues best defensive players with Dion Phaneuf's name involved. One would think that after 350+ NHL games the rookie mistakes would end. Although I do think they are reducing, Phaneuf is still very well known for turning the puck over at the blue lines, risking a check over playing a position/man, and switching off his man to go to the puck while his man goes to the net unguarded.
Let's not forget that you and I are both in the same broadcasting area and get to watch the same games. And as much as I might have a negative bias towards Phaneuf as I have never really been excited about the guy, there also may be the opposite bias from a person who is a fan of the guy.
But you are calling me on an opinion that is shared by many in the hockey world. There is a reason why Dion Phaneuf is a bubble player on most people's Olympic Team and not a lock such as a Pronger or Neidermayer.
I'll admit that the defensive liability may have been a bit over the top. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/11/2009 11:19:38 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sharksfan44
really? not even in your top 10 canadian defensemen. thats interesting. i would like to know who u have in front of seabrook.
just to compare more stats. bouwmeester has 14 points this year, seabrook has 13. but points are not everything. bouwmeester has a plus/minus of 14, seabrook has a 7. seabrook has 72 hits this year, bouwmeester 33. bouwmeester has 54 blocks, 22 giveaways and 6 take aways. seabrook has 55 blocks, 18 givaways and 9 takeaways.
very even, but as u pointed out seabrook plays with keith, bouwmeester does not, but nonetheless seabrook is definitley in my top 10 canadian defensemen.
Your wish is my command:
Beans Top 10 Canadian Defesemen(in no specific order)
Chris Pronger
Scott Neidermayer
Shea Weber
Jay Bouwmeester
Dan Boyle
Chris Phillips
Ducan Keith
Mike Green
Robin Regehr
Drew Doughty
If I picked the Olympic Team today it would be Pronger, Neidermayer, Weber, Bouwmeester, Boyle, Keith, and Phillips or Doughty on my taxi squad.
You may be able to compare Seabrook to some of these guys, but I don't think you would see very many polls that would have Seabrook in a landslide over any of these guys. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:35:54
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Taken from Hockey Central at Noon interview with Darryl Sutter. The Sutters are known for not sugarcoating anything.
McLean: Dion Phaneuf has taken a lot of heat. Every time I pick up a newspaper he has fallen down on the Team Canada thing and people said they had a bad year last year. Darryl you watch him every day, tell us exactly how he is playing and how his head is. To me he is a young guy still and I get frustrated when I read these things about this kid.
Darryl: You know, I feel exactly like you Doug. I get extremely frustrated by it too. It is like asking if Kiprusoff is playing his best that he ever played. Well the two guys since i have been here that everyone wants to jump on when they have one bad shift or one bad goal are Dion and Kipper. Really they are two guys that are main stays on our team, you know Dion played through injuries last year and played right til the end and gave us everything he could. He played a lot of minutes, you know what I have no issues at all with Dion. I think it is just progress of a young player and he continues to make it. We just came back from this trip and he was outstanding, in San Jose him and Robyn played every shift against their big line and was the first time the line had been shut out in however many games they said.
I think he has been outstanding, I think that we have all played with and coached young guys that sometimes expectations outside are so big they aren't even realistic. Dion came into the league and he is a 15-20 goal guy and I guess they expect more and really what we expect is a well rounded player who continues to get better, and he does that. TBQH I am proud of the way he handles it because it is not easy playing in a market where they talk about you every day.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:38:23
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Beans, is Niedermayer a defensive liability?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Taken from Hockey Central at Noon interview with Darryl Sutter. The Sutters are known for not sugarcoating anything.
McLean: Dion Phaneuf has taken a lot of heat. Every time I pick up a newspaper he has fallen down on the Team Canada thing and people said they had a bad year last year. Darryl you watch him every day, tell us exactly how he is playing and how his head is. To me he is a young guy still and I get frustrated when I read these things about this kid.
Darryl: You know, I feel exactly like you Doug. I get extremely frustrated by it too. It is like asking if Kiprusoff is playing his best that he ever played. Well the two guys since i have been here that everyone wants to jump on when they have one bad shift or one bad goal are Dion and Kipper. Really they are two guys that are main stays on our team, you know Dion played through injuries last year and played right til the end and gave us everything he could. He played a lot of minutes, you know what I have no issues at all with Dion. I think it is just progress of a young player and he continues to make it. We just came back from this trip and he was outstanding, in San Jose him and Robyn played every shift against their big line and was the first time the line had been shut out in however many games they said.
I think he has been outstanding, I think that we have all played with and coached young guys that sometimes expectations outside are so big they aren't even realistic. Dion came into the league and he is a 15-20 goal guy and I guess they expect more and really what we expect is a well rounded player who continues to get better, and he does that. TBQH I am proud of the way he handles it because it is not easy playing in a market where they talk about you every day.
Willus will we agree that Regher is the most defensively sound player on the Calgary Flames? The fact that Regher and Phaneuf were out playing against Thortons line is more a credit to Regher than it is to Phaneuf. Phaneuf has defensive qualities, yes, but if Regher went down no way do you send Phaneuf out with Giordano against the Thorton line. You might send Bouwmeester and Phaneuf or Giordano out against Thorton's line. Phaneuf and Bouwmeester are more offensively skilled than any other flames D thats why they see time on the powerplay. And yes I do watch Flames hockey and I have respect for all 3 Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Regher. |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by sharksfan44
really? not even in your top 10 canadian defensemen. thats interesting. i would like to know who u have in front of seabrook.
just to compare more stats. bouwmeester has 14 points this year, seabrook has 13. but points are not everything. bouwmeester has a plus/minus of 14, seabrook has a 7. seabrook has 72 hits this year, bouwmeester 33. bouwmeester has 54 blocks, 22 giveaways and 6 take aways. seabrook has 55 blocks, 18 givaways and 9 takeaways.
very even, but as u pointed out seabrook plays with keith, bouwmeester does not, but nonetheless seabrook is definitley in my top 10 canadian defensemen.
Your wish is my command:
Beans Top 10 Canadian Defesemen(in no specific order)
Chris Pronger
Scott Neidermayer
Shea Weber
Jay Bouwmeester
Dan Boyle
Chris Phillips
Ducan Keith
Mike Green
Robin Regehr
Drew Doughty
If I picked the Olympic Team today it would be Pronger, Neidermayer, Weber, Bouwmeester, Boyle, Keith, and Phillips or Doughty on my taxi squad.
You may be able to compare Seabrook to some of these guys, but I don't think you would see very many polls that would have Seabrook in a landslide over any of these guys.
very good list, and i completley agree that seabrook would not win in a landslide if compared to any of these guys, i just really like keith and seabrook together, just my opinion. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:46:32
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quote:
Beans Top 10 Canadian Defesemen(in no specific order)
Chris Pronger
Scott Neidermayer
Shea Weber
Jay Bouwmeester
Dan Boyle
Chris Phillips
Ducan Keith
Mike Green
Robin Regehr
Drew Doughty
If I picked the Olympic Team today it would be Pronger, Neidermayer, Weber, Bouwmeester, Boyle, Keith, and Phillips or Doughty on my taxi squad.
Good Picks, Personally I replace Phillips with Keith but thats just me.
Another thing though with this year's Olympics is that there isn't a "Taxi" squad the way there was for '06 the way it works this year is that you can make any injury substitutions to the roster before the tournament begins.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Beans, is Niedermayer a defensive liability?
Firstly to your post about the MacLean/Sutter conversation, I wouldn't expect a coach to talk crap about their own player. Although I would agree that Sutter is definately more of a straight shooter when it comes to questions than other coaches, he's still Phaneuf's coach. If you can show me a time where Suttler was completely candid about a specific player who was playing poorly, I would hold more vailidity to this arguement. I think you could find clips where Sutter outright called his entire team out, but not a single player straight up.
And there were also reports early this year of a shouting match after a particularly poor defensive game for the Flames between Sutter and Phaneuf. So one could argue this both ways. And even in the statement, Sutter made comments about Phaneuf being a 15-20 goal a year guy so what more do people expect. I agree. Completely agree. He is an offensive defensemen. Very few of the best offensive defensemen had the ability to be a shutdown guys as well. There are a few of both of our favorites on the all time list, but there is a list 2-3 times as long of offensive defensemen who were not great on the defensive end compared to the list of brilliant two way defensemen.
I am fine with and have always agreed that Dion Phaneuf is an offensive beast, wicked PP quarterback and an punishing hitter. I just can't agree that he is the man in his own end.
As far as the Neidermayer question, I feel a trap coming but I will bite anyway. (Willus, I see an epic battle between us on this one. This is going to get fun!!!)
No, Neidermayer is not a defensive liability. He is not the most sound defensively, but his phenominal skating has gotten him out of more than one jam. He is and always has been one of the biggest risk takers as a defenseman which contridicts my opinion of a standout defensemen. I do recall many times where Stevens backed up Neidermayer in New Jersey as well as Pronger/Beachemin in Anahiem. But he creates that with the offensive risk, not by being poor in his end.
Let's see where this one is going. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Taken from Hockey Central at Noon interview with Darryl Sutter. The Sutters are known for not sugarcoating anything.
McLean: Dion Phaneuf has taken a lot of heat. Every time I pick up a newspaper he has fallen down on the Team Canada thing and people said they had a bad year last year. Darryl you watch him every day, tell us exactly how he is playing and how his head is. To me he is a young guy still and I get frustrated when I read these things about this kid.
Darryl: You know, I feel exactly like you Doug. I get extremely frustrated by it too. It is like asking if Kiprusoff is playing his best that he ever played. Well the two guys since i have been here that everyone wants to jump on when they have one bad shift or one bad goal are Dion and Kipper. Really they are two guys that are main stays on our team, you know Dion played through injuries last year and played right til the end and gave us everything he could. He played a lot of minutes, you know what I have no issues at all with Dion. I think it is just progress of a young player and he continues to make it. We just came back from this trip and he was outstanding, in San Jose him and Robyn played every shift against their big line and was the first time the line had been shut out in however many games they said.
I think he has been outstanding, I think that we have all played with and coached young guys that sometimes expectations outside are so big they aren't even realistic. Dion came into the league and he is a 15-20 goal guy and I guess they expect more and really what we expect is a well rounded player who continues to get better, and he does that. TBQH I am proud of the way he handles it because it is not easy playing in a market where they talk about you every day.
Willus will we agree that Regher is the most defensively sound player on the Calgary Flames? The fact that Regher and Phaneuf were out playing against Thortons line is more a credit to Regher than it is to Phaneuf. Phaneuf has defensive qualities, yes, but if Regher went down no way do you send Phaneuf out with Giordano against the Thorton line. You might send Bouwmeester and Phaneuf or Giordano out against Thorton's line. Phaneuf and Bouwmeester are more offensively skilled than any other flames D thats why they see time on the powerplay. And yes I do watch Flames hockey and I have respect for all 3 Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Regher.
No I wouldn't agree. I find Regehr to be overrated defensively. He gets that from his physical play along the boards. But he also coughs up the puck far too often in his own end and has no idea how to get it out of his own end. Passing to covered teammates or shovelling it up the boards to turn it over.
Early in the year when the Phaneuf/Regehr pairing were struggling it was Phaneuf bailing out Regehr more often than not believe it or not. Both had their lapses early but it was mostly on Regehr. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 13:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Beans, is Niedermayer a defensive liability?
Firstly to your post about the MacLean/Sutter conversation, I wouldn't expect a coach to talk crap about their own player. Although I would agree that Sutter is definately more of a straight shooter when it comes to questions than other coaches, he's still Phaneuf's coach. If you can show me a time where Suttler was completely candid about a specific player who was playing poorly, I would hold more vailidity to this arguement. I think you could find clips where Sutter outright called his entire team out, but not a single player straight up.
And there were also reports early this year of a shouting match after a particularly poor defensive game for the Flames between Sutter and Phaneuf. So one could argue this both ways. And even in the statement, Sutter made comments about Phaneuf being a 15-20 goal a year guy so what more do people expect. I agree. Completely agree. He is an offensive defensemen. Very few of the best offensive defensemen had the ability to be a shutdown guys as well. There are a few of both of our favorites on the all time list, but there is a list 2-3 times as long of offensive defensemen who were not great on the defensive end compared to the list of brilliant two way defensemen.
I am fine with and have always agreed that Dion Phaneuf is an offensive beast, wicked PP quarterback and an punishing hitter. I just can't agree that he is the man in his own end.
As far as the Neidermayer question, I feel a trap coming but I will bite anyway. (Willus, I see an epic battle between us on this one. This is going to get fun!!!)
No, Neidermayer is not a defensive liability. He is not the most sound defensively, but his phenominal skating has gotten him out of more than one jam. He is and always has been one of the biggest risk takers as a defenseman which contridicts my opinion of a standout defensemen. I do recall many times where Stevens backed up Neidermayer in New Jersey as well as Pronger/Beachemin in Anahiem. But he creates that with the offensive risk, not by being poor in his end.
Let's see where this one is going.
Darryl Sutter is Calgary's GM not their coach. Brent is the coach.
Brent has called out several players so far this season. Iginla, Jokinen, Moss, Glencross....
Would you agree that much of Phaneuf's reputation as a poor defensive player has sprouted from last season's results? Lowest point total thus far, highest goals against in the league and poor plus minus rating(his only negative plus/minus season to date)?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 13:26:45
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I wouldn't disagree that many of his fans were disappointed in last years performance, but that is not my opinion. I have not been a fan of Phaneuf defensively from the time I watched him in the WJC and I did have high expectations for him to improve coming into the NHL. Maybe too high. And we are still talking about a guy who is just 24 yrs old. Many of the best D-man don't hit their prime until their late 20's/early 30's.
I have already admitted there is some bias on my side, but it's not so deep that my vision is completely clouded. It's more like partial cloudy where your vision appear to be mostly sunny.
I do agree that he is improving and his time under the coach Sutter this year has shown me at least the most visible improvement. But I still don't see him anywhere near a star defensively and would still consider him below average. It's just those stupid mistakes that I can't get past. The things that make a fan through stuff at the TV. I am not saying that he contributes significantly to the Flames when they lose. It's just the overall risks he takes put his team in a compromised position. It's a 1/2 a step back on the agression of those hits in the neutral zone, a dump in rather than a skate in at the other teams blue line and that quick snap pass at his own blue line that seem to be missing. And ultimately realizing that if he doesn't have to chase the play all the time. The best of the best find a way to make the play come to them and they make it look effortless.
Maybe that is why I am so hard on the guy. He is so close, it's frustrating that he doesn't see he has all the tools to be the best in the league. He is just not using some of them properly.
When he does, you and I can be friends again. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 15:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I wouldn't disagree that many of his fans were disappointed in last years performance, but that is not my opinion. I have not been a fan of Phaneuf defensively from the time I watched him in the WJC and I did have high expectations for him to improve coming into the NHL. Maybe too high. And we are still talking about a guy who is just 24 yrs old. Many of the best D-man don't hit their prime until their late 20's/early 30's.
I have already admitted there is some bias on my side, but it's not so deep that my vision is completely clouded. It's more like partial cloudy where your vision appear to be mostly sunny.
I do agree that he is improving and his time under the coach Sutter this year has shown me at least the most visible improvement. But I still don't see him anywhere near a star defensively and would still consider him below average. It's just those stupid mistakes that I can't get past. The things that make a fan through stuff at the TV. I am not saying that he contributes significantly to the Flames when they lose. It's just the overall risks he takes put his team in a compromised position. It's a 1/2 a step back on the agression of those hits in the neutral zone, a dump in rather than a skate in at the other teams blue line and that quick snap pass at his own blue line that seem to be missing. And ultimately realizing that if he doesn't have to chase the play all the time. The best of the best find a way to make the play come to them and they make it look effortless.
Maybe that is why I am so hard on the guy. He is so close, it's frustrating that he doesn't see he has all the tools to be the best in the league. He is just not using some of them properly.
When he does, you and I can be friends again.
You may not feel that way from last year but most do. From reading many different forums it's very obvious.
Considering he played with an injury basically all season, played 30 minutes a game under a coach who had no system to speak of and whose forwards paid no attention whatsoever to team defence, did not have a consistant partner all season playing with two rookies in Pardy and Giordano, I think Phaneuf had a respectable year.
Now here is what you said about Niedermayer: "No, Neidermayer is not a defensive liability. He is not the most sound defensively, but his phenominal skating has gotten him out of more than one jam. He is and always has been one of the biggest risk takers as a defenseman which contridicts my opinion of a standout defensemen. I do recall many times where Stevens backed up Neidermayer in New Jersey as well as Pronger/Beachemin in Anahiem. But he creates that with the offensive risk, not by being poor in his end."
This pretty much sums up Phaneuf. Except since Hamrlik left he hasn't had the partner to back him up. Not quite as great a skater as Niedermayer but definitely no slouch either.
Now all those stupid mistakes you mention. When exactly was the last one you noticed? Everything you mentioned are what people regurgitate from previous years assuming it is still the case.
He does not take himself out of position with big hits anymore. He doesn't get sucked into taking stupid penalties anymore. IE: not fighting after a big hit and the other team wants him to.
His positioning and defensive awareness are there. Running around chasing the play is minimal, in fact Regehr is more guilty of this now.
What he does need to improve is his stick in the lanes. He is good with his stick against shots but against passes he could use some improvement. If last game against Atlanta is any indication he is working on it as quite honestly I think that was the best game I have ever seen from him.
My issue is with people who refuse to admit or see that he is improving rapidly. The reason is quite obvious as well. People love to hate Phaneuf. They really do. Plus he also plays in a high profile hockey market so the attention is always there with people constantly picking him apart. I've watched Weber a bit this year and there is absolutely no justification someone could make for him over Phaneuf on the olympic team. But you see, Weber doesn't play in a high profile market. His flaws aren't paraded out on the highlights. If Phaneuf keeps playing like he is you can bank on it Stevie Y will have him on the team. It would be a mistake not to. He has the experience in the big tournaments and has excelled there. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 17:02:20
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I still personally see that 3-5 clear mistakes a game. Maybe my eye is being a little more bias, but there are still those plays where he puts himself well out of position for no benefit to the play.
In fact, I will watch the next Calgary game and list out what I see. Both good and bad. Then we can talk more.
On a side note, I heard a blurp today on Sportsnet West that said Dustin Penner was on a list of 6 players who were not invited to Orientation Camp but are being considered for the team.
I also found this. I wonder who the other 5 players are??
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/306042-penner-gets-added-to-the-list-of-team-canada-possibles
Still not saying that Penner is there, but to see he is good enough to be considered by the Brass means I am not a crazy as many of your said I am.
Nice to see that Penner hears his name being tossed around as an Olympian and he steps out with a 4 point game and the 5th straight road win for the Oilers, which is a franchise record.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 12/11/2009 19:54:37 |
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Guest2672
( )
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Posted - 12/11/2009 : 20:10:32
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| The other 5? Well 4 of them i'm sure would be Brad Richards, Steven Stamkos, Patrice Bergeron & Marc Savard. I don't have the list of the invited in front of me so i'm not sure about the 6th. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 20:27:56
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I would agree with all but Bergeron. Even though he was discussed on TSN the other day, I don't see it.
He may very well be one of the names on the list, but I just can't see it.
Here is a link to the list of invitees.
http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/news/newsid=12421.html
Rich Peverley?? Andrew Brunette?? Mike Cammellari?? John Tavares??? James Neal?? Jarrett Stoll??
Travis Zajac??? Ian White??(by they way, easily my favorite Leaf. What a gammer!) |
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Guest2672
( )
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Posted - 12/11/2009 : 21:03:01
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I dunno, of the guys you listed perhaps Cammalleri, but i just can't see any of the others really challenging for one of the final spots.
Would a guy like Marty Turco ever qualify as one of the 6...personally i think the goaltending is pretty much set in stone with Brodeur, Luongo & Fleury.
And i'm from Brad Richards hometown, and i was told about 10 days ago that Yzerman had called Richards. I didn't hear what was said, but now after reading this i'm guessing that he was told that he was among a group of 6 not invited to camp that they were considering. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 21:27:44
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I'm torn here personally (regarding Phaneuf).
I'm not Dion's biggest fan by any means, never have been. Never will be.
With that being said, my opinion on Dion has nothing to do with liking him or not, but as to how I see his skill level from the little I have watched of him (usually the odd Saturday Night CBC game).
Phaneuf can be caught making silly mistakes at times, which Beans touched on. He plays a physical game, which I like in a D-man, but often times you may find (or I do atleast), that he plays over-physical getting him in to trouble. I also find he will not play physical enough, when it comes to a bigger player. He tends to shy away. (if this makes sense. lol.)
Dion is not a top defencmen in my opinion, not yet anyways. In a few years time he may be, but he has a lot of little things to work. He has the potential, he just lacks in the little things.
This is all I can type right now, I just finished reading this post, in its' entirety, word for word. I didn't even feel like posting this! lol.
Irvine |
Edited by - irvine on 12/11/2009 21:29:02 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 00:44:00
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Ok here is my latest roster. I chose players based on natural position (for 90% of the guys) I also tried to avoid going for the players who just have the most points this season. I based it on tried-and-tested players and those players who have dominated in the last few years. As you can see by the 4th line I chose guys who actually know how to grind it out and battle for a puck (Marleau is a fast SOB and has serious backcheck and shorty potential. He and can fight against another team's top line with ease, not to mention he is a faceoff king - posession is nine-tenths of the law fellas!) Here we go....
Forwards:
St. Louis, S. Crosby, J. Iginla,
R. Getzlaf, J. Thornton, D. Heatley,
R. Nash, V. Lecavalier, C. Perry
B. Morrow, P. Marleau, S. Doan
Defence:
S. Niedermayer, M. Green
D. Phaneuf, C. Pronger
J. Bouwmeester, D. Boyle
Goalies:
R. Luongo
M. Brodeur
MA. Fleury
On the bus:
Lanny McDonald
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2010 Team Canada Roster 
