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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2008 : 21:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5442
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Even nowadays though, since the 1990s, I would say I liked many different Habs more.
Umm Alex, Huet wasn't with the Habs since the 1990s. Let's rephrase and refocus, who is your favorite Hab the last 3 years?
As to the trade itself, to get a 2nd rounder is Grand Theft in comparison to what Burke (who everyone calls a genius) got for Bryz. It looks like chump change though to what Nashville stole from Toronto for Toskala.
Totally confused with this.
1) Burke got absolutely nothing for Bryzgalov. He put him on waivers. So I don't understand how and 2nd round pick for Huet is Grand Theft compared to getting nothing at all???
2) What Nashville stole from Toronto for Toskala?? Toskala never played for Nashville, he played for San Jose. And the deal was Toskala and Mark Bell for a 1st, 2nd, and 4th round pick. And what does that have to do with this Huet Deal???
Please enlighten me as I am totally confused. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 21:14:58
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OK, I have a series of comments about this deal and I would love to hear feedback from Hab Fan on:
1) Halak, Price, Huet. That trio is two current players who are starters and one who could be a starter. Rarely if ever has a team done well with two starting goalies in their system. That being said, someone had to move between Price and Huet. You Habs fans are all upset because Huet left. Would you have prefered for Price to get moved?? One of them had to go.
2) Huet is a UFA this off season. Every GM knows this and every GM knows what he will be paid in the offseason(I am thinking $4 million/year plus.) As I said above, either Price or Huet had to move. That being said, what GM in their right mind would give up a bunch for a player that is a UFA in the offseason if they are not in the playoffs??
3) Most of the playoff bound teams have pretty solid goaltending, so there wasn't a need for a rental goalie. That left the teams out of the playoffs. Why would they give up anything of value for a player they might have a chance to sign as a UFA in the off season??
4) Here is a list of around 20 UFA or RFA goalies this off season.
Theodore, Jose
Kolzig, Olaf
Huet, Cristobal
Lehtonen, Kari
Hasek, Dominik
Fleury, Marc-Andre
Joseph, Curtis
Grahame, John
Leclaire, Pascal
Hedberg, Johan
Holmqvist, Johan
Lalime, Patrick
Hiller, Jonas
Howard, Jimmy
Thibault, Jocelyn
Crawford, Corey
Valiquette, Stephen
McElhinney, Curtis
Aebischer, David
Auld, Alex
As you can see, the list is not really deep, but there are some decent goalies around. Again, why would a GM of a non-playoff team give up anything of value for a player he may or may not have in 3 months and/or may be able to sign in the off season anyway???
My final comment is this. Huet could have walked away from the organization in the summer and the Habs could have gotten absolutely nothing in return. At least a 2nd round pick has potential and it is from a perenially weak team so it could be a high 2nd round pick. This trade deadline did not have many teams fishing for starting goalies for a playoff run. Huet, in my opinion, based on the situation(not his ability because I agree he is a solid player) was traded for a reasonable value in return.
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Guest4735
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Posted - 03/01/2008 : 22:02:55
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| well said, one thing i'd fix on that is the pick is actually anahiem's pick |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 23:32:11
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one thing beans and i know every habs fan in the world would shoot me for saying this,,,, but,,, for the right skater i would trade price before huet,,, why??
1. This year undenialbly huet is the goalie that has got the habs where they are in the standings not price,,,
2.huet will be top 6 in the league for another 3 to 5 years,,,(dont believe me don't care in the next few years i'll be able to say told ya so)
3. the return on price would be imense,, the habs i guarantee could have worked a deal price and a few decent players for a guy like lecavalier!
basicly what im saying for the next three or so years huet is the better goalie go with him and i would trade price if (pun intended) the price is right,,, if i could get lecavalier hell yess trade price,,, the habs still have cedrick dejardiens halak and danis who are all repectable goalies coming up,,,, plus huet for a few more years,,, price could still fall flat on his face the chances of all of these guys not being good as projected is unlikely,, you're rigjht beans for what you can get for huet is minor due to the situations so instead trade price!
Pasty |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 00:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
one thing beans and i know every habs fan in the world would shoot me for saying this,,,, but,,, for the right skater i would trade price before huet,,, why??
1. This year undenialbly huet is the goalie that has got the habs where they are in the standings not price,,,
2.huet will be top 6 in the league for another 3 to 5 years,,,(dont believe me don't care in the next few years i'll be able to say told ya so)
3. the return on price would be imense,, the habs i guarantee could have worked a deal price and a few decent players for a guy like lecavalier!
basicly what im saying for the next three or so years huet is the better goalie go with him and i would trade price if (pun intended) the price is right,,, if i could get lecavalier hell yess trade price,,, the habs still have cedrick dejardiens halak and danis who are all repectable goalies coming up,,,, plus huet for a few more years,,, price could still fall flat on his face the chances of all of these guys not being good as projected is unlikely,, you're rigjht beans for what you can get for huet is minor due to the situations so instead trade price!
Pasty
Alright, I know you were only using it as an example, but Lecavalier was not even close to on the market. But just for a second, let's imagine he was:
Price and other players for Lecavalier?? What or why would any single GM in the league give up a top, elite player in the league for a rookie goalie?? Not a chance in hell that Price has any bigger value than Huet, However, potentially Price has a bigger upside.
Huet will be a top 6 in the league for another 3-5 years?? Not likely at all.
Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Turco, Giguere, Leclaire, Kiprusoff, Nabokov, Toskala, Dipietro, Backstrom, Bryzgalov.
There is a list of 12 goalies that I put easily ahead of Huet today and in 3 years. Does anyone realize the Huet is 31 years old? The only way that Huet is a top 6 goalie in the NHL is on your playstation.
How about the fact that Price is under contract for another 2 seasons at $850,000 a year. Why would you give up a goalie proving himself more and more each game at that price(no pun intended) for a goalie who is a UFA at the end of the year and would command 4 or more times that amount??
Price staying in Montreal was not only the best business choice, but also the best hockey choice. Price has put up Huet type numbers in his first year?? Why would you think he will fall on his face?? Has he shown anything that would make anyone think he will not get better and better as time goes on???
Young Player+Lower Cost+Same Numbers= Keep Price
Older Player+Higher Cost+ Same Numbers+potential of Huet leaving at the end of the year= Get what you can for Huet.
It is really that simple. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 07:00:12
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Beans I like your math, everything points in the right direction, with one inconsistency.
''Get what you can for Huet''
Now, maybe they had to trade Huet to give the message to Price ''we're riding on you and you are our number one''. Has Price responded? You bet he has.
The only problem was, in his haste, Bob Gainey gave away Huet for a second round draft pick. Had he traded him to Tampa at least, it would mean a better pick. That's thinking conservatively.
Imagine had Huet been traded to any team with goalie problems (and we know how many teams make that list) -- do you not think at least one of them would be willing to let go of a first round pick for Huet? Or a prospect? A second round Anaheim draft choice seems like the short end of the stick, especially considering what Hal Gill landed for Cliff Fletcher...
Habs get number 25 this year |
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Guest5442
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Posted - 03/02/2008 : 07:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Totally confused with this.
1) Burke got absolutely nothing for Bryzgalov. He put him on waivers. So I don't understand how and 2nd round pick for Huet is Grand Theft compared to getting nothing at all???
2) What Nashville stole from Toronto for Toskala?? Toskala never played for Nashville, he played for San Jose. And the deal was Toskala and Mark Bell for a 1st, 2nd, and 4th round pick. And what does that have to do with this Huet Deal???
Please enlighten me as I am totally confused.
1. If Burke got nothing and Gainey manage to get a 2nd roudn pick, wouldn't you say Gainey got a better deal since he "stole" a pick from Washington?
2. You are right, it was SJ not NSH that fleeced the Leafs in the Toskala trade. If Bryz is worth nothing in return and Huet a 2nd rounder, then wouldn't this be considered a bigger steal? In essence Wilson robbing the JFJ blind.
I'm trying to point out how little market there is for goalies that are available to trade. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 11:53:03
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look at huets stats over the past three years they put him in the top 4,,, and huet sees on adverage 31 + shots a game,,,,,, noone wants to see this guy for how good he really is why? is it because he was born in france?? is it because he had never skated untill he was 16? whatever your reasons open your eyes people this year a huge reason why the habs are where they are is his great play,, sure he had a rough patch his last week as a hab but over the past three years his play has been nothing short of brilliant,, the guy is a team player and a class act he could give any starter in the league a run for there job with guys like luongo and nabokov as exceptions,, is ryan miller a better goalie no is lundquvist hell no turco not a chance,,, try and pretend he was quebec born and it jus didn;t take quite as long for him to come to the nhl,,,, the reason it took so long was he was quite happy being the marty brodeur of the swiss elite league,,, it was his goalie coach in the swiss elite league that convinced him he could dominate as well in the nhl... like i said you dont agree with me now,, but wait and see in the next few years,, huet is gold!
Pasty |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 13:12:46
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Pasty makes a good point and I for one agree with him, more or less. Now, I'm sure that our Canadian bias plays a role, and I am also sure that his age / late start plays has psychological ramnifications as well.
I do also believe Huet could be a starter on many teams, Let's run through them, shall we. We're saying COULD BE not for sure.
Anaheim - NO
Atlanta - YES
Boston - YES
Buffalo - YES
Carolina - YES
Columbus - YES
Calgary - NO
Chicago - YES
Colorado - YES
Dallas - NO
Detroit - YES
Edmonton - YES
Florida - YES
Los Angeles - YES
Minnesota - YES
Montreal - YES
New Jersey - NO
Nashville - YES
Islanders - YES
Rangers - YES
Ottawa- YES
Philadelhpia - YES
Phoenix - YES
Pittsburgh - YES
San Jose - NO
St Louis - YES
Tampa - YES
Toronto - YES
Vancouver - NO
Washington - YES
Mind you, a lot of those "YES''s are there because I feel he could fight for the starting role, not get it as the undisputed numbero uno. Thoughts on my list?
Habs get number 25 this year |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 05:01:21
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i disagree with you on a few, but not many. Now, i realize that you said that he could fight to be starting goalie, not necessarily become the starting goalie.
But i don't think he could become starter on:
Buffalo- Ryan MIller is the starter and has earned it.
New York- I don't think Huet would beat out Lundquist. I think Henrick is their starter.
Boston- Tim Thomas is the only reason that the Bruins are where they are so i think they would stick with him. I
Columbus- the way Leclaire is playing this year, i would definitly take him over Huet.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 07:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
i disagree with you on a few, but not many. Now, i realize that you said that he could fight to be starting goalie, not necessarily become the starting goalie.
But i don't think he could become starter on:
Buffalo- Ryan MIller is the starter and has earned it.
New York- I don't think Huet would beat out Lundquist. I think Henrick is their starter.
Boston- Tim Thomas is the only reason that the Bruins are where they are so i think they would stick with him. I
Columbus- the way Leclaire is playing this year, i would definitly take him over Huet.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull.
I would throw in Florida as well. Vokoun is just too good. Nashville made a huge blunder in opting for Mason instead. |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 07:06:17
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ya, good point Super Sakic. Florida just needs defence. Boewmeester can't do it all.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 11:05:01
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| I dont think huet is better the fleury .. not a chance |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 11:08:32
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at this point I think he is better than Fleury. But I think in a year, possibly two, Fleury will be better than Huet ever was. Fleury has been quite inconsistent this season.
quote:
Originally posted by Axey
I dont think huet is better the fleury .. not a chance
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 12:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
I dont think huet is better the fleury .. not a chance
Not better, but he could fight for the role. Fleury just came off an injury and had not played NHL level for over two months, and anyways, his profile words is ''inconsistent''. I think he is good but he needs to be good every night, and Huet could steal the job for a few weeks at a time whenever Fleury falters.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 12:57:14
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| alright ... expansion era team comes into effect ... both are unprotected .. which one are you taking? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 15:05:35
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This is absoultely insane. Look at Huet's numbers in the past three seasons puts him in the top 4 of what? Again, your playstation NHL dynasty is about the only thing Huet is in the top 4 of.
I took a look back on the time since the lockout and every regular season game every goalie played. I took out any goalie that did not play at least 50 games and I ranked them in the following Catagories:
Games Played
Wins
Losses
OT Losses
Shots Against
Goals Against
Saves
Save %
Shut Outs
Shots/Game
Goals Against/Game
Win %
Huet was only ranked in the top 10 of three of those catagories (Save %. 2nd, Shut Outs, 9th, and Shots/Game, 7th). In fact, he wasn't in the top 15 of any other catagory.
I then looked that the rankings, considering each catagory being equal, and created an all around ranking. For example, if a goalie ranked #1 in each of the 11 catagories, he would have a score of 11 (combination of all ranks). Then divided by 11(number of catagories) and a average rank is created. The lower the score the better.
Here is the list in order/
Martin Brodeur
Roberto Luongo
Miikka Kiprusoff
Tomas Vokoun
Henrik Lundqvist
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Ryan Miller
Rick Depietro
Manny Legace
Marty Turco
Timothy Jr. Thomas
Cristobal Huet
Dominik Hasek
Kari Lehtonen
Evgeni Nabokov
Ray Emery
Vesa Toskala
Martin Gerber
Marc-Andre Fleury
Mathieu Garon
Chris Mason
Dwayne Roloson
Martin Biron
Niklas Backstrom
Manny Fernandez
Pascal Leclaire
Ilja Bryzgalov
Chris Osgood
Peter Budaj
Nikolai Khabibulin
Cam Ward
Olaf Kolzig
Alexander Auld
Curtis Joseph
Antero Niittymaki
Ed Belfour
David Aebischer
Andrew Raycroft
Ty Conklin
Jose Theodore
Fredrik Norrena
Johan Holmqvist
Jason LaBarbera
John Grahame
Brent Johnson
Curtis Sanford
Mikael Tellqvist
Johan Hedberg
Marc Denis
Sean Burke
Robert Esche
Patrick Lalime
J-Sebastien Aubin
Kevin Weekes
Hannu Toivonen
Jussi Markkanen
This tells me a couple of things:
1) Pasty, you did not do your homework before you posted.
2) Huet is statistically below most the the goalies I named in a previous post. Of the others I named (Backstrom, Leclaire, Bryzgalov) 2 of those three were backing up some pretty talented goalies before this year.
Regardless, I don't really care what you "think." Prove to me that Huet is an elite goalie in the league. He's not on my top 10 list, or most anyone else's.
2nd round pick for an above average but not elite, UFA goalie is about right.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 03/03/2008 15:09:13 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 16:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
This is absoultely insane. Look at Huet's numbers in the past three seasons puts him in the top 4 of what? Again, your playstation NHL dynasty is about the only thing Huet is in the top 4 of.
I took a look back on the time since the lockout and every regular season game every goalie played. I took out any goalie that did not play at least 50 games and I ranked them in the following Catagories:
Games Played
Wins
Losses
OT Losses
Shots Against
Goals Against
Saves
Save %
Shut Outs
Shots/Game
Goals Against/Game
Win %
Huet was only ranked in the top 10 of three of those catagories (Save %. 2nd, Shut Outs, 9th, and Shots/Game, 7th). In fact, he wasn't in the top 15 of any other catagory.
I then looked that the rankings, considering each catagory being equal, and created an all around ranking. For example, if a goalie ranked #1 in each of the 11 catagories, he would have a score of 11 (combination of all ranks). Then divided by 11(number of catagories) and a average rank is created. The lower the score the better.
Here is the list in order/
Martin Brodeur
Roberto Luongo
Miikka Kiprusoff
Tomas Vokoun
Henrik Lundqvist
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Ryan Miller
Rick Depietro
Manny Legace
Marty Turco
Timothy Jr. Thomas
Cristobal Huet
Dominik Hasek
Kari Lehtonen
Evgeni Nabokov
Ray Emery
Vesa Toskala
Martin Gerber
Marc-Andre Fleury
Mathieu Garon
Chris Mason
Dwayne Roloson
Martin Biron
Niklas Backstrom
Manny Fernandez
Pascal Leclaire
Ilja Bryzgalov
Chris Osgood
Peter Budaj
Nikolai Khabibulin
Cam Ward
Olaf Kolzig
Alexander Auld
Curtis Joseph
Antero Niittymaki
Ed Belfour
David Aebischer
Andrew Raycroft
Ty Conklin
Jose Theodore
Fredrik Norrena
Johan Holmqvist
Jason LaBarbera
John Grahame
Brent Johnson
Curtis Sanford
Mikael Tellqvist
Johan Hedberg
Marc Denis
Sean Burke
Robert Esche
Patrick Lalime
J-Sebastien Aubin
Kevin Weekes
Hannu Toivonen
Jussi Markkanen
This tells me a couple of things:
1) Pasty, you did not do your homework before you posted.
2) Huet is statistically below most the the goalies I named in a previous post. Of the others I named (Backstrom, Leclaire, Bryzgalov) 2 of those three were backing up some pretty talented goalies before this year.
Regardless, I don't really care what you "think." Prove to me that Huet is an elite goalie in the league. He's not on my top 10 list, or most anyone else's.
2nd round pick for an above average but not elite, UFA goalie is about right.
well i suppose you did a little more homework then me thats all, i only looked at GAA Sv% and shots on goal and i didn;t weight them all the same ,,, in my opinion your post just proves my point futhur,,, you're telling me a goalie who sees the 7th most shots in the league and saves the second highest percent of those shots isn;t top ten in the league ??? espcially when his gaa is under 2.5??? come on beans!
those are the stats that matter!!
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 03/03/2008 16:58:02 |
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Datsyuk 1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
333 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 20:29:10
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That just a terrible trade for Montreal, the 2nd round picks are usually pretenders but never doubt the 2nd round pick. Now Montreal has to go in the playoffs with Price is that good to give him a chance or no?
Good defense is good offense! |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 21:52:29
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| This is quite the topic for sure. I had no idea that so many cared one iota about what the toilet seats did or didn't do. Price is an awesome goalie period. Huet was expendable and Gainey managed to get rid of some cap dollars and picked up a second which really isn't chopped liver. I do not think there was a huge market for goalies around the league and he probably made the right decision. I can remember twice before rookie goalies carrying the Habs to two Cups in the past, those being Dryden and Roy. I have to add that I do not know why anybody could possibly like the toilet seats anyway, pretty soon they won't even be part of our great nation. Secondly, that list of teams placing Huet as number one should not include the Leafs, we already have a goalie that is better than him in Toskala. Thirdly, to the guest that suggested that all Leaf fans could blow him because the Habs were going to win the Cup, I wish you only the best of luck in trying to collect if they do. I will leave the rest up to your own little imagination. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 07:35:45
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Antroman, here here! Words of wisdom.
And Alex, I did address your very issue in pretty much every one of my post. Let's explain it one more time from the cheap seats.
1) Huet is a UFA at the end of the year. A GM is not going to give up ANYTHING of value for a UFA unless it's for a rental. As I said, the playoff teams have solid goaltending for the most part. That leaves the non-playoff teams. Why would a non-play off team give up anything for a UFA??
2) Price is and has been playing just as solid as Huet. So as Antro said, Gainey dropped a salary. Plus, if Gainey was planning on going with Price, if he didn't trade Huet he would have had him walk away for nothing in July.
3) And although you 'vast majority" think he could fight for a starting spot on most teams, I disagree completely. I named 12 goalies that I would start ahead of him without question. That means he is fighting for a starting spot on maybe 60% of the teams and can outright start(IMO) on about 10 teams in the league.
That being said, Gainey getting anything for him is better than him walking away at the end of the year and Montreal getting nothing back.
Does that answer your question Alex?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/04/2008 07:37:53 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 08:16:54
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again,,, i'll repeat myself the goalie who sees the 7th most shots in the league and stops the 2nd highest percentage of those shots all the while maintaining an average of under 2.4 could only be guranteed his spot on 10 teams in the league???? and again this isn;t just in one year this is in three years running?? oh and did anyone catch price's performance against san jose,,, not to take a lot away from price but in the big gams like last night,,, he was obviously nervous and off his game,,, san jose averages i think just over 2 goals a game so the fact that they got 6 last night,,, shows the habs need consistent goaltending ,,, like a said before,, huet got us basicly into first while price was in the minors with and average over 4 ???????
Pasty |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 08:27:56
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| Hey Pasty, Just maybe Gainey is trying to build a dynasty and realizes that it would have been beneficial to keep Huet for this season and try to win the cup but the pick, cap reasons and avoiding free agengy was the proper way to go. As far as Huet's record goes, I think Raycroft would have decent stats on that team because of their style of play. Carbonneau is a master at keeping goals out. I am not selling Huet short because he is an excellent stopper for sure but just stating facts. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 08:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Antroman
Hey Pasty, Just maybe Gainey is trying to build a dynasty and realizes that it would have been beneficial to keep Huet for this season and try to win the cup but the pick, cap reasons and avoiding free agengy was the proper way to go. As far as Huet's record goes, I think Raycroft would have decent stats on that team because of their style of play. Carbonneau is a master at keeping goals out. I am not selling Huet short because he is an excellent stopper for sure but just stating facts.
Pasty |
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Guest0001
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Posted - 03/04/2008 : 08:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Antroman
Hey Pasty, Just maybe Gainey is trying to build a dynasty and realizes that it would have been beneficial to keep Huet for this season and try to win the cup but the pick, cap reasons and avoiding free agengy was the proper way to go. As far as Huet's record goes, I think Raycroft would have decent stats on that team because of their style of play. Carbonneau is a master at keeping goals out. I am not selling Huet short because he is an excellent stopper for sure but just stating facts.
Pasty
the post above is mine for some reason this computer is going nuts its not mine sorry guys,, you're absolutly right antro.... see now everyone is going to call me crazy but i love raycroft and i think on a lot of other teams he could be great,,, i remeber pre lock out habs vs. boston in the playoffs i was at 2 of those games and i was baffled at how amazing raycroft was the only reason that boston lasted so long in the playoffs,,, i'm just saying next the habs have only 6 guys under contract,,,, what if we lose a bunch of guys or cant afford to sighn them the cup won't come next year this year we're first in the east this is the year to make our run... who knows what next year is going to bring! And if gainey was looking for a cup this year he couldn;t afford to lose the goalie that has got them where they are espcially not for nothing,,, the habs are undeniably a worse team after the deadline,,,, how many cup contending teams get worse!? |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:26:39
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| I am not a big fan of Raycroft but agree that he is not as bad as some people make him out to be. I think the Leafs being what they are does not afford the luxury of a soft goal now and again. I think Toskala is just a little more stable than Raycroft and a much better puck handler. You are right as far as this season goes, the Habs were not stronger after the trade deadline but maybe they didn't need to be? I like the chemistry they have been building on since training camp. I said just before Christmas that they were getting scary and I have no reason to relent on that statement. Maybe Gainey was most afraid to break up that chemistry. Old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I really do not think that they can beat the west this year but it would not surprise me to see them represent the east in the finals especially if they can keep the home rink advantage by finishing first. God, I hate talking about them though because personally I hope they lose in the first round. It is my fear of them that keeps me interested in what they are doing or not doing.......LOL....... |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 12:19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Antroman
I am not a big fan of Raycroft but agree that he is not as bad as some people make him out to be. I think the Leafs being what they are does not afford the luxury of a soft goal now and again. I think Toskala is just a little more stable than Raycroft and a much better puck handler. You are right as far as this season goes, the Habs were not stronger after the trade deadline but maybe they didn't need to be? I like the chemistry they have been building on since training camp. I said just before Christmas that they were getting scary and I have no reason to relent on that statement. Maybe Gainey was most afraid to break up that chemistry. Old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I really do not think that they can beat the west this year but it would not surprise me to see them represent the east in the finals especially if they can keep the home rink advantage by finishing first. God, I hate talking about them though because personally I hope they lose in the first round. It is my fear of them that keeps me interested in what they are doing or not doing.......LOL.......
haha its true i do remember you calling them well before christmas as scary good,,, good call,,,, personally love my huet to much so go caps go!!!
Pasty |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 13:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Antroman
I have to add that I do not know why anybody could possibly like the toilet seats anyway, pretty soon they won't even be part of our great nation. Secondly, that list of teams placing Huet as number one should not include the Leafs, we already have a goalie that is better than him in Toskala.
Toskala was doing as good as Huet was doing before he got traded. The reason you think Toskala is better is because you see how the laughs suck so you automatically think that he must be amazing, so therefore, to you Toskala's play look's better than the Huet's. It's all a matter of perspective. 
Also, I would take any moniker before I took the Leafs. They are doing a disservice to canada's symbol by being so sucky!
So that is why someone would like the "toilet seats" before a bunch of leafs that look like someone just did some wiping with them.  |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 03/04/2008 13:16:58 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 14:29:43
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Pasty, I think you are only looking at the stats that favor Huet. Let's do a little something here.
Huet has done all the AMAZING things you speak of being a part time starter. He's played 118 games in the past three seasons and that is only have of Montreal's games through the trade deadline this year. Most of the "starting" goalies in the league during that time have played 150 games or more. Some of them over 200 games. Of those guys who have played more than 150 games, 3 of them have a save percentage below .910 and only 1 has a save percentage less than .900. Of those same 13 goalies, all of but three of them face at least 27 shots a game so it's not like they are taking too many nights off. Looking at GA/game, 8 of them have a better GA/game than Huet. These goalies are:
Brodeur
Kiprusoff
Luongo
Turco
Dipietro
Lundqvist
R. Miller
Giguere
Vokoun
Kolzig
Nabokov
Khabibulin
Legace
What's my point?? I actually have two very clear points.
1) Although you might think that Huet's numbers put him in the catagory becuase of his save percentage and shots and what ever. But, this list of goalies do what Huet does but playing more game. That is the reason Huet doesn't belong. Huet plays 118 game(barely over 50% of available games), the other 150 (67%) or more and 10 of them with 160 (75%) or more game. Having a high save percentage and low GA and facing a lot of shots every 2ND night is not the same as doing it 2 out of 3 nights.
2) Although some will argue that it has more to do with the team, but the bottom line to any goalie is winning. It wouldn't matter if the goalie's other stats were not near the top if he won more games that anyone else. Here is the the list of goalies who have played as many or more games than Huet and have a higher win percentage. You will notice that some are on better teams, some on teams that are not as good.
Hasek
Brodeur
Gerber
Toskala
Turco
R. Miller
Giguere
Legace
Kiprusoff
Vokoun
Emery
Lundqvist
Luongo
Ward
That's means there is a list of 13 goalies who statistically do as good as Huet or better while playing more games and a list of 15 goalies that win more than Huet playing the same or more games.
LAST TIME FROM THE UPPER DECK.
None of this indicated that Huet is an elite goalie in the league. He is a UFA at the end of the season, and not many if any playoff bound teams were looking for goalies. That means his value(at least at the trade deadline) is not that high. He's an above average goalie(not elite) and he may or may not sign with the team who traded for him. No GM will give up anything for that.
2nd round pick is about as much as anyone would have given for Huet.
Doesn't anyone think that Gainey would have gotten something more if it was available?? |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 21:49:12
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| Hey SuperSakic, I like Toskala better simply because he plays for the Maples. Simple as that. We will never know if Huet is an improvement over Toskala because in all probability he will never play here? Secondly, I am from Southern Ontario and root for the Maples because I am from here. You see, the team could lose every game for the next five years and they would still be my team. It is just so counter productive to root for foreign teams when you have one of your own and the Habs would be the last team on God's green earth that I would cheer for. Only traitors and darksiders do those things.......LOL...... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 00:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Beans, just take three seconds to explain why Hal Gill got more, that's all that bothers me.
All aboard the Price bandwagon
Here are the reasons I can think of:
1) Hal Gill is not a UFA at the end of the year.
2) A 6'7", 250 lbs stay at home defenseman who can give you 20+ minutes a night will always find a home in the NHL.
3) For $2 million/season, it's a pretty reasonable salary for the next two years and a pretty low risk.
4) And most importantly. It's the trade deadline. That means some players go for more than their value while others are basically dumped for a lower value then they are worth.
If this was in the middle of summer, Huet has a higher value than Gill. However, as I said at least a half dozen times, unless it's a playoff team no GM will overpay for a rental player. The playoff bound teams appeared to be confident with their goaltending(rightly or wrongly.) That means Huet does not have a high value at the trade deadline. Also, Gainey must have thought that he was going with Price long term, so why not get at least something or let him walk away at the end of the year and have nothing to show for it.
Why is this concept so hard to understand???
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 04:27:14
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I see your point. Now, question, did Pittsburgh not overpay? Some say Hossa is not a rental player, well, if he isnt, Malkin will probably go, or else some other big name. And for what they gave up... 
I mean, let's be real, they made that trade to win the cup. I don't see it happening and I see Ray Shero as the big loser
All aboard the Price bandwagon |
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Guest2769
( )
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Posted - 03/07/2008 : 06:25:34
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| All Buffalo got from Philly for Biron last season was a 2nd round pick... |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:03:16
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I agree. I do not see them winning the cup this year and i do not see Hossa resigning with them. If these things do not come to pass, then Pittsburgh just traded away a HUGE part of the future. Atlanta's GM is a genius tho! Incredible move for him!
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I see your point. Now, question, did Pittsburgh not overpay? Some say Hossa is not a rental player, well, if he isnt, Malkin will probably go, or else some other big name. And for what they gave up...
I mean, let's be real, they made that trade to win the cup. I don't see it happening and I see Ray Shero as the big loser
All aboard the Price bandwagon
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I see your point. Now, question, did Pittsburgh not overpay? Some say Hossa is not a rental player, well, if he isnt, Malkin will probably go, or else some other big name. And for what they gave up...
I mean, let's be real, they made that trade to win the cup. I don't see it happening and I see Ray Shero as the big loser
All aboard the Price bandwagon
Did PItt overpay for Hossa??? I don't think so. I think of it more as insurance. Firstly, I doubt any GM would give up a bunch for a player like Hossa without having some kind of idea they could sign him.
That being said, if Hossa doesn't sign they might have lost out.
But.............
If they can sign Hossa, it puts a lot less pressure on them to sign Malkin. Then, they can shop Malkin for a possible sign and trade. They can easily get more for Malkin then they gave up for Hossa. So, to tell the real meat of the deal is to see what happens next. If they can trade Malkin for a top defensemen, a top 6 forward and a high draft pick or prosepct, that is solid. Then, in essence the trade Malkin, Angelo Esposito, Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen and a first-round draft pick for Hossa, a top 2 defensemen, a top 6 forward and potentially a 1st round draft pick.
That looks like an even trade to me.
But let's face it, I don't think any of the guys that Pitt gave up will be bonified superstars in this league. Like ever other trade in hockey, it's a risk. I personally would have taken that same risk. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/07/2008 08:25:43 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:30:16
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Wasn't Pittsbrugh in rebuild mode just a few moments before the Crosby sweepstakes? I mean come on, they arent contenders in three years from being last place teams.
Sure they are much better than expected, but let's face it, they won't win the cup this year, I will bet all my points in the ''Put your reputation where your mouth is!'' game we have going.
Had they kept Armstrong Christensen Esposito the prospect, and as you suggest, later, Malkin, they would be able to run away with it soon, in a rerun of 92 93. I think they blew their chances, and I think the salary cap is slightly to blame.
All aboard the Price bandwagon |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 10:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Antroman
Hey SuperSakic, I like Toskala better simply because he plays for the Maples. Simple as that. We will never know if Huet is an improvement over Toskala because in all probability he will never play here? Secondly, I am from Southern Ontario and root for the Maples because I am from here. You see, the team could lose every game for the next five years and they would still be my team. It is just so counter productive to root for foreign teams when you have one of your own and the Habs would be the last team on God's green earth that I would cheer for. Only traitors and darksiders do those things.......LOL......
I see that you follow the "old-school" sense of logic, where you go down with the ship no matter what happens. But I think it is also because you been around much longer than I and have watched a lot more "dynasty" teams play. No disrespect to your age, but I think it puts some perspective on how you see the game. I for one (although not that young) have only started watching hockey since the 89-90 season, so for me it was more a matter of "man, do these Leafs suck or what?". I still loved Gilmour and Clark, but after they traded those guys away there wasn't much to like about them. Then when the Habs won the cup, I said to myself "now there's a team that really knows how to play!". They had consistently made the playoffs (except for last season). Their players I noticed were always better and more exciting to watch than the Leafs' players. I became a fan because I enjoyed the game of hockey and how it was played by the Habs, not because I just happen to live in a particular city. I bet when you started watching the Leafs play they were probably one of the hottest teams around. And I think that that is how ALL fans of hockey come to like the teams that they like.....does anyone ever become a fan of hockey because they started off watching the team of their city play like crap every season? I think not. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 10:42:06
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Beans agree huet hasn't played as much as other nhl goalies that is 100% correct but may i ask you this do you think maybe huet was victim of bad circumstances, i mean for example if the trade garon for huet and bonk had never happend,, surly theodore would have had the same melt down ,,, we know garon could have easily done what uet did takeing over that no 1 job,,, theo goes to colorado and abby comes back with garon. then you have huet,, who that year could have very easily taken the no 1 job from cloutier and or j.s aubin,,, he would have had his two season in l.a and this year L.A could have had huet as the starter with Labarbra or even Bernier as his backup huet would have deffinetly seen over 60% of the games in L.A this year and they probaly would have been willing to sign him for another 2 years or so while Bernier develops..... only down side to this Garon would never have ended up with your oilers but my point is i find both huet and Garon are potentially Great goalies who keep getting the short end of the stick having to prove themselves again and again,,,,,,,,
Pasty |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 20:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
Beans agree huet hasn't played as much as other nhl goalies that is 100% correct but may i ask you this do you think maybe huet was victim of bad circumstances, i mean for example if the trade garon for huet and bonk had never happend,, surly theodore would have had the same melt down ,,, we know garon could have easily done what uet did takeing over that no 1 job,,, theo goes to colorado and abby comes back with garon. then you have huet,, who that year could have very easily taken the no 1 job from cloutier and or j.s aubin,,, he would have had his two season in l.a and this year L.A could have had huet as the starter with Labarbra or even Bernier as his backup huet would have deffinetly seen over 60% of the games in L.A this year and they probaly would have been willing to sign him for another 2 years or so while Bernier develops..... only down side to this Garon would never have ended up with your oilers but my point is i find both huet and Garon are potentially Great goalies who keep getting the short end of the stick having to prove themselves again and again,,,,,,,,
Pasty
Ok, I kinda follow what you are saying, and I agree. Huet did kinda get a stuck a little in Montreal. But for him personally, I think being in Washington is a great thing. Young up and coming team that will more that likely invenst in him being the full time #1. I think that's awesome.
All my previous posts were just stating that Huet, albeit a solid goalie, is not an elite goalie in the league. When I talk about the elite, it's Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Kipprusoff, Nabokov, and Turco. Those are the money goalies in the league in my mind. Huet belong in the group below that, who are solid goalies and up and comers like Backstrom, Thomas, Vokoun, Bryzgalov, Toskala, Dipeitro, and such.
The unfortunate thing was for Montreal. I truely don't think they could have gotten more than a 2nd rounder for the various reasons I have stated countless times. Montreal need to move him or lose him for nothing. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2008 : 11:07:46
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agreed ....
Pasty |
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Cris huet for a 2nd round pick?? 
