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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2008 : 07:57:12
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Saturday April, 5
Leafsfan_101 vs. Alex
PLEASE only Leafsfan_101 and Alex post in this thread untill their debate has ended. If you have any comments, please post in the other thread.
Leafsfan_101 and Alex. This will most likely be a long argument for years to come. And, still there really is no clear cut winner. Your topic up for debate is.....Crosby vs. Ovechkin
This is truely a question that may never be answered in some peoples eyes. In this debate, state clearly why you chose the side you are on and make your facts worthwhile and clear. Leafsfan_101 will be on the side for Ovechkin, and Alex will be debating the side for Crosby which he has agreed to.
Since Leafsfan_101 was drawn first, he will get the opening statement. Each person will get 3 statements. Back and forth against eachother. Leafsfan_101 may start whenever he is ready.
Other members, please wait untill the debate is over untill you cast your vote. This thread is STRICTLY for DEBATING and VOTES.
Good Luck!
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/06/2008 08:31:53
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 08:01:23
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This debate will live as one of the greatest comparison's between players of the same era. Ovechkin vs. Crosby has been around since both of them came onto the scene in the 2005-2006 season. But who has been better, and who will be better? Well, I'm here to plead the case of Alexander the Great.
Let's put some info in here. Ovechkin came into the league as the 1st overall pick post lockout year, Crosby the protege of post lockout. In that first year, both competed for the Calder on mediocre teams. Ovechkin definitely showed his flare, and in that year was 3rd in overall points, 3rd in goals and winning the Calder over Crosby.
It can be argued that Pittsburgh was worse then Washington, but the fact is that there was no one of marginal skill on Washington that year besides Ovie. Ovechkin finished 1st on his team in points, goals and assists. The next closest is Danius Zubres, with 57 points, followed by Jeff Halpern with 44 points. Ovechkin had more goals then Halpern had points, and almost had more goals then Zubres had points. So the argument that Pittsburgh was a lot worse then Washington is simply stupid!
In his next year, Pittsburgh got Malkin and Staal. Who did Washington get? Alex Semin. Pittsburgh was loaded with more skill and it showed with Crosby's points. But did Ovechkin play badly? Absolutely not! Still without decent line mates, Ovechkin posted 46 goals and 46 assists, nearly missing out on hitting 50 goals. Add to the fact that Semin doesn't play with Ovechkin, and his main line mates were Chris Clark and Boyd Gordon, this is even more impressive.
And then there is this magical year. 65 goals, 46 assists and 112 points. This makes Ovie the first player since Pavel Bure in 1994 to have a 60 goal season. Complete that with him carrying the team on his back throughout the season and leading them to a post season berth, this makes his case for the Pearson and Hart Award a lock.
But the stats don't say the whole story about Ovechkin. Ovie plays a physical game, something Crosby shies away from. Ovechkin celebrates every goal he scores like it;s his first, and is just as enthusiastic when a teammate of his scores. He always boosts the team, and helps everyone on his team. His teammates have said he is a great teammate, while Pittsburgh seams annoyed at the antics Crosby displays.
Before I eave, I have one final argument for Ovechkin. Without Ovie, Washington is a dead team. This is because of how big of a part he plays in the team, both on the ice and in the dressing room. Without Crosby, Pittsburgh was fine, carried by the play of Malkin. This shows that Pittsburgh is capable without Crosby, whereas Washington wouldn't be able to play without the play of Ovechkin, and his leadership in the dressing room. Any way you slice it, Ovechkin is Crosby's superior. And that's why I chose to defend him.
I hope to see Alex's rebuttal. I hope this sheds some enlightenment on this never ending debate.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 11:26:02
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Sidney Crosby: love him or hate him, you have got to respect the guy.
…although to this day, it remains a mystery to me why anyone would hate him.
I could probably fill a post with all his accolades. But hey, this isn’t the ‘‘copy and paste your first ten Google results for keywords: ‘Sidney Crosby’ ’’ contest, it is a debate contest.
I am looking to add aspects to the debate that you do not hear over and over and over yet again. I want to shed light on some things that probably never crossed a lot of minds when looking at the classic Ovechkin vs. Crosby question.
They are so close that the only way one can get the edge over another is by looking at something other than numbers.
Both are first overall draft choices. In three seasons, Ovechkin has 16 more points. Yet, Crosby has roughly 0.115 more points per game. Crosby has 65 more penalty minutes; Ovechkin, 64 more goals. Ovechkin is a little taller, a little heavier; Crosby has 48 more assists.
These guys are neck and neck, really.
Leafsfan_101, you asked me to ‘shed some enlightenment on this never ending debate.’ I have taken this challenge and will not disappoint.
Leafsfan_101, your post reflected the classic anti-Crosby, pro-Ovechkin argument that has been building, especially this season. I must admit, it is hard to counter cold hard fact. Without Crosby, the Penguins soared. That is true. However, I will choose to look at Sidney Crosby, the man, against Alexander Ovechkin, the man. Not the image, not the hockey player, not the icon – the man.
Sidney Crosby is a funny, lovable, spunky boy-next-door type of teenager, and is no different than anyone else growing up in Canada, other than the fact that he is living a dream. A collective dream.
The type of dream that pushes kids all over our country to stay out way past sunset firing pucks through chubby, frost-bitten fingers at garage doors, imagining that they are playing for hockey’s Holy Grail.
Sidney Crosby, following in the footsteps of his boyhood idol Steve Yzerman, is turning the pages in history, and providing a new generation of Canadian children an icon with which they can identify.
We all know of his prolific hockey career. His complete domination as a boy, his instant success in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League as a teen, his uncanny ability to perform at such a high level night after night in the NHL, and all the fanfare that comes along with it.
But there is so much more to Sidney Crosby than what TSN tells you.
He has always been Sidney first, and Sidney Crosby second, if you will. Instead of going to the Bob McKenzie’s and the Pierre McGuire’s for their say, let’s look a little closer to home. How about asking boyhood pal Michael Chiasson for his say.
Crosby invited his buddy over on numerous occasions, along with a couple other neighbourhood boys. Ask them what a Nintendo’64 is and they probably did not know. Video games and television along with all the other latest and greatest technology were no match to an orange hockey ball and a couple sticks in a driveway.
This is a role model. Showing a new generation of children what simple, good-natured, healthy fun is all about.
In my mind, more impressive than the numbers 120 (point total that won him the Art Ross Trophy), 8.7 (amount, in millions, he signed his contract for) and 27 (amount of days younger than the next youngest captain, Vinnie Lecavalier) is the number 85. Relax all you stats-savvy, don’t run to your charts and graphs and pull out the old calculator just yet, my friends. You won’t find this number on the back of any Upper Deck trading cards.
85 is Sidney’s high school average. That’s right. Media all around him, his friends all over him, kids from all over the province already looking up to him – and he maintains his composure, keeping his head on straight: like I said, it is Sidney first, and Sidney Crosby second. This, my friends, is a true role model. He knows how to keep his priorities straight.
Reminds me of a certain Ken Dryden. Remember him? 
Sidney Crosby is simply a well-rounded individual. With or without the hockey, he would be a role model.
Karen Dale, the vice-principal of Astral Drive Junior High, doesn’t know very much about the game of hockey. And yet, she has offered arguably the greatest praise he has gotten.
‘“He’s an amazing role model. He’s kind to people. He was really kind to students in the learning center and to special needs kids. He is one of the nicest kids I’ve ever seen go through here.”
Sidney appreciates that he has been given the chance to live a dream, and he spends every second living up to it. He was given a gift and he wants to use it as best as he can.
He spends his off time giving back to the community. Most recently, he made a visit to the Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh. If you look at the video, you will see how down to earth Sidney really is. He loves kids, he loves putting smiles on people’s faces. He even chatted with one of the patient’s friends over a chat-room, just to try and brighten her day for a little longer.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3213138&categoryId=2459791
He is also a big advocate of community programs, such as Timbits hockey, which he fully endorses and supports. He wants to see kids across the country playing hockey and learning valuable life lessons along the way, like he did in 1993. Sidney got his chance, and he does everything within his power to ensure others get theirs. To Sidney, the greatest thing is giving back.
I will share with you a true story that happened to me this past summer at camp.
We were all sitting around the bonfire sharing our stories, each one trying to outdo the next. Well, along came a councilor named Jesse Mintz and blew them all away with this one.
His best friend had the privilege of playing against Crosby in a tournament final when they were 11. He remembers his coach saying ‘watch out for that 87 kid, they say he is really good’ or something like that.
Boy was he ever. Crosby scored something like four goals and added an assist to take home the trophy for his team. After the game, he shook hands with all the opposing players, invited them all (both teams!) back to his house for pizza and mini-sticks, and they even got a snapshot together.
You can bet the kids around the bonfire were absolutely awe-struck. Since that day, the motto at camp was ‘Be a Sidney.’ The older guys helped the younger ones around the pool, the better players offered a few pointers to the younger ones, and the vibe at camp in general was so simply that much more uplifting.
Sidney Crosby is the real deal. He is, above all, a great human being, with a cheerful outlook on life, a kind nature, a sense of humour, and a smile that never fades. He is providing the children of Canada with a person they can aspire to be.
I can only imagine what type of Canada we will see in the next twenty years. Millions of kids striving to be well-bred, intelligent, fun and cheerful human beings sounds like a pretty good thing to me.
I smile knowing that I am growing up with a generation of Sidney Crosbys.
NOTE: Beans mentioned the importance of getting your facts straight. I would like to ask my combatant what his source if for saying that Pittsburgh ‘seems annoyed at the antics Crosby displays’? Personally, I have never heard this one before.
As well, I am curios as to what it is that makes Ovechkin a more physical player? Ovechkin has size, does not mean he plays a more physical game. Ovechkin has presence, does not mean he plays a more physical game. Might I remind you that Crosby has 65 more penalty minutes despite playing in 32 fewer games? Sidney has been smaller than opposition since he started playing at a young age, and he has learned how to deal with it. His size is no indication of his heart, and his physical game.
Check out this link. I think he is fourteen in the video, playing with seventeen year olds. You gain a lot of insight into the type of guy he is, the passion he has for the game, and what he has gone through to get where he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neO44K7Awg0
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 17:04:13
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Alex, I don't dispute Crosby's passion for the game, how nice he is or anything like that. But this is a debate determining who is superior to the other. It is about who is more valuable to his team, who performs better then the other night in and out on a consistent basis no matter who is playing along side him. And it is the player who does this better throughout the season, and their career.
I'm sorry, and this is no offense to you, but the stats you gave were completely irrelevant to anything worth making facts out of. Ovechkin has more points then Crosby, but Crosby has a slightly, and I mean slightly, higher PPG. This proves.... And another thing I would like to point out is the amount of penalty minutes Crosby has more then Ovechkin. Penalties are not all due to physical contact, and if they are, it's illegal physical contact. Proving that Crosby has more penalty minutes shouldn't be something that you praise Crosby for. It should be a knock against his play.
Ovechkin isn't only good, he's a clutch performer. This year Ovechkin leads the league in game winning goals, with 11. He also steps up his game when it matters. He is 5th in points vs. his own division, and 1st vs other division opponents. And with the emphasis put on special teams, Ovie is arguably the most clutch person in the league in that respect. He is 1st in powerplay goals (22) and 7th in powerplay points (37).
But, as you all know, hockey isn't like baseball. You can't judge a player on his stats, but instead need to look at how he contributes to his team in every aspect. Ovechkin is a player that encourages his teammates to do better, and makes them play better just off of his personal charisma. He celebrates his teammates goals with the same passion he has when he scores, and he plays a team-first kind of game.
I still find that there are a couple of things that Ovechkin does that separates him from Crosby. First off, he doesn't shy away from a physical game. He hits with intensity, and hits some more. Ovechkin's hits don't leave him in a defensively-liable position, but instead create opportunities for his team. Ovechkin therefore can change a game by scoring a goal or with a big hit. Either way there is no argument to his clutch and ability to change a game. None at all.
Secondly, you never see Ovechkin yelling at his teammates or critizicing his coach. He is a class act guy, and knows that the team is more important then the individual. This year Glen Hanlon came to Ovechkin with the C. What does Ovechkin do? He declines and allows someone with experience to take it. He knows he isn't ready, and knows that he has much to learn to become better. Crosby takes the C when given, when there are more capable captains on the team then him.
Lastly, there is something I've said in my first post. You can take Crosby away from the Pens and they will, and have, excelled. Take Ovechkin away and the Caps have no audience, no playoff hopes, nothing. It shows just how valuable he is.
Value is something that is hard to come by in the NHL. It is hard to buy, get in a trade and even draft. Ovechkin is Mr. Everything to the Caps, and has put the team on his shoulders and fought to make the playoffs. And he succeeded in doing that, showing great poise and determination.
You can throw any stat my way to prove that Crosby has the same effect on Pittsburgh as Ovechkin does on Washington. But you won't find it. Because without Crosby Pittsburgh did just fine. They didn't struggle. Nowhere near that. They played better. I'm not saying that Crosby is a bad player by any extent.
But when compared to Ovechkin the choice should be clear. And my purpose here today is to show you that.
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Edited by - leafsfan_101 on 04/06/2008 17:06:50 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2008 : 15:10:58
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Very well, leafsfan_101. You chose not to rise to the challenge I presented you with, the very same one I took upon myself when you imposed it on to me. As well, you ignored my inquiry as to your source for saying that Pittsburgh players are ‘annoyed with Crosby’s antics.’
What peeves me the most though, is that we have a good chance to add something new and fresh to a debate that will be ravaging for years. However, I have yet to see anything original in what you say. On the contrary, I have heard your arguments repeated time and time again to the point where they are becoming old.
If you win, you win. But you missed a chance to do something valuable.
Also, I would like to pose a simple question, to which I am positive there is no answer: who said what the debate guidelines were? I double-checked LeafsRockPlanet’s statement in which he announced the topic. All he said was ‘Crosby vs. Ovechkin.’
Yet you say:
‘This is a debate determining who is superior to the other. It is about who is more valuable to his team, who performs better then the other night in and out on a consistent basis no matter who is playing along side him. And it is the player who does this better throughout the season, and their career.’
My dear friend, you have erred. This is Sidney Crosby versus Alexander Ovechkin. If I feel that a big part to Sidney’s superiority is his off-ice actions, than that is a valid point.
You may be aware, there is a debate on this very website regarding the fate of a certain Patrick Roy, solely as a result of his off-ice actions. Red Fisher, someone who has been following the Canadiens organization for a very long time is in complete opposition to the notion that Roy’s number be retired.
Was he one of the greatest Habs? You could argue that he was the most valuable Hab ever. Whereas the dynasties in the ‘70s were stacked, the teams he led had next to no talent in comparison. And yet, his number may not go up on the rafters.
An overwhelming 35% of voters responded he does not deserve to have his number raised, with another 2% having doubts.
Now, Ovechkin is no Roy; far from it. Clearly, the analogy is not perfect. However, also clearly, a hockey player is not measured solely on his on-ice accomplishments.
Sidney greatly outclasses Alex in the big picture. He is a hero that all of Canada idolizes, and he is someone worthy of being a role model. Off the ice there is no comparison. You have yet to even as much as suggest that there is.
However, I have heeded your call yet again. You have chosen to shy away from that which you can not find on Google. Very well, I will make my case for Crosby on the ice, too.
Right off the bat, you have to notice that Ovechkin is two years older. That is a huge head start. He is more relaxed and he is more focused, tt comes with age.
We see Crosby getting better and better each year. He is much more focused and much more of a leader with each game. Hey, he had 102 points at 18 years old! Ovechkin had 106 at 20 – may I remind you that at one year younger, age 19, Crosby managed a league-leading 120? I think a lot of us let Ovechkin’s age advantage fall under the radar. Even in his quote on quote ‘magical year’ Ovechkin came 8 shy of Crosby’s totals.
You said ‘It is the player who does this better throughout the season, and their career.’ Even though those are not the guidelines, if they were, it would not be to your advantage, but rather, to mine. Crosby is on pace to greatly outshine Ovechkin. He is younger and has so much more potential.
You mention Crosby accepting captaincy as a flaw? First of all, let me remind you that he originally passed it up until he felt he was ready.
As well, I would like to pose a question to you: whom in your eyes merits being a more worthy candidate? In Sidney Crosby they have locked up their entire future. He has such an infectious passion for the game it is unbelievable!
Last year they showed a video during a game between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Pittsburgh Penguins of Sidney coming out hours before the game to play around with his puck handling.
Since that point last year, the whole team has gotten involved. Crosby now regularly leads scrimmages way past the scheduled end of practice. His youthful exuberance has caught like wildfire in that dressing room!
It is in this informal time that he established that they can try out new things that they may incorporate into a game situation. You all saw that play where Crosby slid to bat the puck out of mid-air and into the open cage. What was it the commentator said? ‘It’s like he practices it.’
Sidney is leading a charge of creativity and is encouraging his team to have fun with the game and to feel comfortable around each other.
He really unifies the team. Morale and unity is what separates the team of last year with the team from this year, and he is the reason.
Last year’s team was a team that he carried. Last year’s team was a team of individual guys working for the same goal as opposed to a cohesive unit.
However, Crosby does not want that. He truly wants to win, and being a star is not what he wants, he wants to lead a team that is just as able and talented as he is!
This really leads in to my next point.
Sidney Crosby signed a contract for 8.7 million per year. And Ovechkin? A lofty 9.5 per year. What were Sid’s motives? Let’s ask his agent.
''He could have signed for a million or so more a year but he wants to help the team build a winner.''
How does he plan on doing that?
‘Crosby generously allowed him (GM Ray Shero) some wiggle room so he might have a buck or two left when it comes time to re-sign last season's rookies Evgeni Malkin and Jordan Staal.’
Sidney Crosby is the real deal ladies and gents. He is taking his boyhood attitude and applying it to the NHL. He is taking the league by storm!
On one end of the spectrum, he routinely enjoys nights out on the town with his buddies, during which they all bond closer together and indulge in some childish fun. On the other end, he has stayed up late washing dishes, doing work around the house, and even babysitting four kids so then-captain Mario Lemieux could take a break with his wife Nathalie once in a while.
He has been the glue that brought his team so close together. I do not think there is another team in the league closer than his! It is Sid himself who laid out the foundation that would end up saving his team in his absence! Sidney Crosby is the most talented and yet the least self-fulfilling athlete in the NHL!
And then you say he yells at teammates and coaches? Enlighten me on that one, if you can!
Then we have Ovechkin, who you claim is a real team player.
Well, all the hockey pundits agree Ovechkin needs to work on his passing game. In fact, even his coach noticed it. He benched him for a quarter of a game earlier this season, to send the message to him to ‘take shorter shifts and put more of an emphasis on back-checking.’
As well, NHL.com went as far as calling him ‘selfish’ when he originally harboured cold feelings towards new-guy Cristobal Huet. Meanwhile, Huet played just as big if not a bigger part in the Caps late-season down-to-the-wire surge for the post season.
Is sharing the stage a problem?
Again, whereas Crosby takes pay cuts to keep other guys in town, Ovechkin openly resents the help that he gets, when he himself claims that ‘the records do not matter, it is winning that I care about.’
And lastly, in response to your copying and pasting verbatim the point that we hear way too much of: the Pens played better without Crosby.
Coach Therrien addressed this issue. He actually held a meeting to talk to Malkin specifically, but the team as a whole. He gave it to them straight, that they need to play as well as they do with Crosby as without.
It is no secret that Malkin plays much better without Sid. This has nothing to do with Sid’s assets or flaws, it has to do with the young psyche of Malkin. He sort of took the role of Crosby’s apprentice in his first campaign and this year, without Crosby by his side, the training wheels sort of came off; he felt a sudden sense of urgency. Some of us produce under those scenarios, others fail miserably. Luckily for Steel Town, Malkin produced. As did many others.
However, when Sidney comes back they feel much more relaxed. If you stop and think about, that in itself is actually a great deal of praise to Sidney.
True, when Crosby originally left, they played better. This has nothing to do with Sidney, it has to do with the timing. As a young team, they were reeling off last year’s somewhat surprising success, and were a little unfocused. It is the age. But when Sid was sidelined, they woke up and realized it was time to play. They have matured over that point though, and will move on. They will only be better with Sidney back in the line-up.
I would like to now propose an idea using the very facts given to me courtesy of leafsfan_101. You seem to highlight the lack of talent around Ovechkin.
So, in theory, we have this all wrong; it is not Crosby we should be comparing Ovie to, but rather, to Malkin.
After all, as you seem to emphasize, he is not the captain. So, he is not held accountable when things go sour. Sure, with captain Clark and Michael Nylander out, Ovechkin feels the need to step it up. But let’s see though how he does in international play, where he is not the go-to guy. You will see, when he is not the star, he doesn’t play like the star.
Comparing apples to apples, Ovechkin’s international stats since 2004 when Crosby started playing are 46 points in 51 games – an average of roughly 0.9 points per game. He also took 76 penalties in that span, reaffirming many analysts belief that he is primarily self-fulfilling. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. And Ovechkin? He gets frustrated and takes penalties.
Crosby, meanwhile, has shone on the international stage. If he did not come to play, others would have. But that didn’t matter; Sidney is the type of guy that takes responsibility for his own actions, regardless of the circumstances. He plays his game whether he is playing with a bunch of three year olds or with the best in the world. This is why Sidney took the captaincy upon himself, because he is ready to be held accountable for the fate of his team.
He has 30 points in a mere 11 games, averaging 2.72 points per game! More than a point and a half more per game than Alex Ovechkin! Why? Because he plays hockey out of a genuine passion for the game, not out of a genuine passion to play well and shine.
As you can see, dear members, the debate is a multi-faceted one with many different aspects to take into account. Leafsfan_101, so far I have only heard from you the same arguments that are thrown out time and time again.
Yet again, I have taken the position that there is much more to look at. No one ever talks about international play. No one ever talks about how Sid brings all the guys together in that room, which is a big reason they are so good. Reread my post, you will see that all my ideas were original, or else quoted. There is a lot to look at, so much to cover – to basically expand on one idea over two posts is not doing the debate justice.
Think long and hard, Leafsfan_101. It is your last post. For the sake of all of us who want to hear something new, try to offer your own insight as opposed to the Hockey World’s collective insight.
NOTE: Your sources for saying that Crosby yells at team mates and players and that they are ‘annoyed with his antics’ are still pending.
NOTE (2): Anything posted is in the spirit of debate. I have nothing against Ovechkin or Leafsfan_101.
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Edited by - Alex on 04/09/2008 15:13:44 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2008 : 17:21:23
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Why did I chose not to heed your request? Because it was a disadvantage to me, as it was playing into a strategy demanded by you. So far I have illustrated Ovechkin's on ice achievements. For my last post in the debate, I will go above and beyond. And believe me, this won't disappoint.
Let's start off with some background information on Alexander Ovechkin.
Alexander Ovechkin began playing hockey at age 7. He was born into a sporting family, his dad a professional soccer player and his mom a 2 time Olympic medal winner and member of the Russian Basketball team.
From a young age Ovechkin loved hockey. At a toy store as a child Ovechkin picked up a hockey stick and helmet and wouldn't let go of it. When watching TV with his parents Alex would be extremely upset if hockey was on and his parents turned the channel. How many Russians do that!
At 7 years of age, Ovechkin already ran into difficulties playing hockey. His parents were unable to bring him to the rink. Because his coaches saw a lot of promise in him and insisted that he continue. Also his brother Sergei convinced his parents to let Alex continue playing. And a few months later, Ovechkin was able to resume playing hockey.
But the difficulties didn't stop there. After Sergei helped Alex continue, he enrolled him in the Dynamo Sports School. Tragically, he died in a car accident months later. This was tough on young Ovechkin, and he thanks and prays for Sergei everyday for giving him the opportunity to live a dream. Death also affected Ovechkin later, in 2004, when another close personal friend died.
Ovechkin has had success in hockey in Russia as a young gun. At age 16 Ovechkin started playing in the Russian Superleague, a league arguably known as the second best in the world. Ovechkin showed poise and determination while playing with much older players. He didn't dominate the league, but he was the best player on Dynamo Moscow and showed he can play in any circumstance. In the 2003-2004 season, Ovechkin won the award for best Left Winger in the SuperLeague and led Dynamo Moscow in scoring. Along with that he led Dynamo Moscow to a SuperLeague Championship title.
And in the 2004 NHL Entry Draft, Ovechkin was chosen 1st overall. So there is the semi-quick briefing of Alexander Ovechkin pre NHL.
Now onto the argument at hand. Alex, I am not going to dismiss the fact that you have made a good argument. And I applaud you at that. But some things haven't been said well, and on those mistakes I hope to capitalize.
To quote you here, "He also took 76 penalties in that span, reaffirming many analysts belief that he is primarily self-fulfilling. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. And Ovechkin? He gets frustrated and takes penalties." When looked upon, this seems astounding. But in reality, it isn't. I'll put it into perspective.
Ovechkin has represented Russia 11 times in his short career. This includes 4 times internationally vs. players older and more experienced then him. There have been 2 occurrences when Ovechkin has takes a large amount of penalties - The 2004 WJC and last year's World Championships. In both of those tournaments, Ovechkin was played physically by the teams, legally and illegally. As a young player still maturing, Ovechkin took penalties to defend himself. Last year he had to fend off people much stronger then him. Ovechkin's job is to score. Teams will find any way to stop him from doing that, and will maul him until he aches physically and mentally.
In the NHL, Ovechkin takes few penalties per game. I'll use the 2007-2008 season as an example. When the going does got tough (3rd period) Ovechkin has only taken 5 penalties in the third period, 2 after the 10 minute mark (11:29 and 13:57) and has taken none in the last 5 minutes of a game all year. Considering this is the going gets tough, Ovechkin is definitely not liable to take a penalty in the "tough" going, and will more often then not create a scoring chance that helps his team then to take a penalty and put his team at risk.
Also, his character is fantastic. Many people who meet him say he has an infectious smile and treats everyone with the same respect. He really shows how much he cares for people in this next story.
The Capitals had a party for the fans on Draft Day 2004. The team hosted this party at a hotel that night for about 300 fans. Ovechkin got to the party early and stayed at the door, greeting every fan as they came in. He really showed them hospitality.
Also, saying that Alex Ovechkin is a "self-fulfilling player" is a stereotypical remark and is one that has no knowledge or facts behind it. Let's get the facts straight. Ovechkin is Russian and scores lots of goals. Easy pickings to say he is self-fulfilling. But in reality that is not the case. Ovechkin has said since he got here that he isn't worried about personal accomplishment, but the good of the team comes first and foremost. In an interview with NHL.com in his first NHL season, Ovechkin was asked if he thinks about winning the Calder. His response? " All I think about is how we can win games in Washington. I don't think about how many goals I must score or winning Rookie of the Year."
Ovechkin hasn't changed since then. In fact, he's embraced every opportunity given to him. And this year he has really shown his stuff.
And although Chris Clark is the Captain, Ovechkin shares many Captain-like responsibilities. When he was drafted into the NHL, Owner Ted Leonis said this, "Alex will obviously be the leader ... but we're going to be able to add around him". Ovechkin was handed the Captaincy position at the end of that season. But he thought he wasn't ready to handle it because he still had language issues and was still trying to adapt to a North American lifestyle. But he is always enthusiastic and boosts the people in the dressing room's confidence. And the players of the Washington Capitals can vouch for that, as they have said this many times throughout their chase to the playoffs this season.
In his third full NHL season, I think Ovechkin has handled himself very well. When he came to the NHL he didn't know the language well, was in a completely new society and had no friends around him. He said that his biggest fear was how he'd fit in on a new team, make friends and adjust to the NHL. He also had the added pressure of competing for the Calder against Crosby, the NHL's new poster child. And what did he do? He succeeded and adapted, winning the Calder, adapting to the North American style of living and learning the language.
"It's a lot to ask of the young players that come over here, away from their families, brand new culture, (to be) thrown right into the NHL," says 27-year-old teammate Dainius Zubrus.
"But he's adapted extremely well and played great. He's always eager to learn different things and fit in well with the team. ... All the guys love him." Zubrus sums it up nicely.
To Russians, Ovechkin is their Crosby. Russian media are at every Capitals game, practise and training session. Because we live in Canada (and some in the US) this isn't known to us. It wasn't known to me until I did my hard research. But Ovie is the real deal. He plays the game out of the pure love of it.
Brian Willsie said this about Ovechkin.
"He comes to the rink, and he's happy. Some guys from Europe come in, and they're a little uncomfortable. ... Sometimes, they complain about little things here and there. He just loves every second."
And that love of the game is what has propelled Ovechkin forward, both in hockey and life. Ovechkin has faced multiple challenges, from the death of his brother to playing against men in Russia and representing his country. In coming here, a new set of challenges were made for him, something Crosby will most likely never have to face. And this year he has led his team almost single-handily to the playoffs, doing this with not only one continent watching, but two.
I think someone on PickupHockey said this, but if Alexander Ovechkin was Canadian I bet that people would be saying he is better then Crosby. The first person to say this would be Don Cherry, who influenced the hockey know how of most Canadians. If Ovie was Canadian this would be a very diffrent argument entirely, and based on Ovechkin's play to Crosby's there would be no compitition as to who most peoplethink is better. Ovechkin!
Ovechkin's obstacles were momentous, and he has passed them. He is an example to Russian kids, about how they can follow a dream and it can come true. A message said, but never shown by example enough in society. And the fact that Ovechkin can motivate two nations is incredible.
I would like to finish by thanking LRP for the opportunity to be in the debate, and to Alex for being my opponent. This was heated at times buddy, but both you and I showed determination and poise. We have done Crosby and Ovechkin justice.
Keep in mind while voting that I had a very difficult time getting the information. I think that I found quality information, and hopefully I used it to it's full extent.
Thanks for reading and happy voting.
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Edited by - leafsfan_101 on 04/12/2008 05:51:47 |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:50:23
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Quote: On one end of the spectrum, he routinely enjoys nights out on the town with his buddies, during which they all bond closer together and indulge in some childish fun. On the other end, he has stayed up late washing dishes, doing work around the house, and even babysitting four kids so then-captain Mario Lemieux could take a break with his wife Nathalie once in a while.
Sorry for interrupting the debate, but I just had to giggle after reading the above statement.  |
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Been There and Done That
Top Prospect
2 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 14:37:36
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It seams like most of the things Alex said (eg. the quote Alex said in SuperSakic's post) weren't based on facts to me and he seams to have sukered all of the panel people into it from the looks of the comments part.
I know I am a newbie and we newbies have to "make our bones" (quoting the Godfather there), but in this debate its clear that LF_101 made a much better point in the one ice play of Ovechkin vs. Crosby. Alex's argument seemed to focus more about his off ice play, claiming he is a much better person the Ovie is. Please, he dedicated an entire post to how much better of a person he is then Ovechkin!
I am a bit older (38) and have seen many debates in my time, but this one is intreguing. And I have to give LF_101 the edge on this one. He displayed his facts better and gave better arguments that are actually related to hockey.
BTW- I am sorry if I posted in the wrong place but I just had to say this. LF_101's argument was one of the best I've ever seen for Ovie, and compared to Alex's there is no competition. I think the members of this site would have to agree with me after reading the knowledge in LF_101 compared to Alex.
Oilers fan for 38 years, and for life. |
Edited by - Been There and Done That on 04/11/2008 14:40:12 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 14:58:44
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Guys, please post in the The Great Debate Comments thread. This one is just for the debate. Also, THE DEBATE IS NOT OVER.
There are two spots left guys if you are interested.
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 17:47:54
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Nice half-try, bud. Let’s make like scientists and dissect that post piece by piece. Yes, that is right, I just equated your post to a sickly frog No worries, it is all in good humour.
I am not going to comment on the beginning part of yet, but will let that stay for later. Leafsfan_101, you gave a half-effort to this competition, because all the resources where in effect at your fingertips. The little that you did ‘add’ to the debate was either from a high traffic source such as Wikipedia or
WashingtonCapitals.com, or was inherently backwards (I am referencing your notion that AO is the Russian Sid the Kid, and I will elaborate later by exposing the members on this site to the words of none other than a Russian citizen.)
I do apologize profusely for the time it has taken for me to post this last reply, but I have been busy gathering first-hand information from primary resources at school (Russian teachers), from my dad (a friend to Ken Dryden) and many other sources including Russian newspapers faxed to me from a family friend in the past little while.
Crosby is the clear winner, guys. Think about it for a minute. All around us the same arguments fly. And when you keep getting bombarded with the same one-sided opinion you are bound to believe it to a certain degree. Try thinking out of the box, and you will see how outclassed Ovechkin is. I looked at age and at international experience and at off ice actions and at influence as a couple of things not often talked about.
And what did you do? In a last-minute patchwork job to bring together the loose ends, you contradicted yourself on multiple points. I can see why you think this debate will be easy, as Ovechkin is clearly the fan favourite. But you can not dismiss the cold hard facts against him in the manner you did or I will, as you shall see, rip apart your argument.
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You mention that Ovechkin’s international through-the-roof penalty totals are a result of the constant abuse he takes. Oh, and Sid doesn’t take abuse? He takes so much more, especially because he is smaller, as you so proudly pointed out above. It was illustrated very well in that YouTube clip I searched up.
Remember the mind games that went on with Sidney Crosby a while ago? Gosh sakes, he was still a teenager at the time! The Aaron Downeys of the league have gone on record saying that they make their money being ‘tow truck drivers’ and it is their job to aggravate the NHL’s poster child.
In fact, an Ottawa journalist for the Ottawa Sun as recently as this week called on a ‘Bobby Clarke’ within the Senators’ dressing room to deliberately attack Crosby’s nursing ankle!
Everyone, but everyone, tries to put a hamper in Sid’s plans, but he has no part of it. As opposed to taking the types of penalties you admitted Ovechkin takes, he completely dominates on the hardest stage of all, the international one.
You should have realized that everything you said about Ovechkin dug you into an even deeper whole, because it can be applied even more so to Crosby! You say he played against players ‘older and more experienced’ – in comparison to Crosby, they were even older, and even more experienced! You call Ovechkin a ‘young player, still maturing.’ I would ask you where that leaves Crosby! This statement applies even more so to Sid than Ovechkin! You stated that Alex had to fend off guys stronger than him? Well, Crosby is smaller and lighter!
All things being equal, your argument has no basis. Ovechkin had more penalties, Crosby more points. But as I pointed out, even your rationale offered as to why Ovechkin took penalties applies more to Sidney, making circumstances tipped in Alex’s favour, yet results tipped in Crosby’s!
You mention the penalties near the end of the game. It is my turn to sit and say, so…? Any player with half a brain knows that you do not take penalties near the end of the game. With the new three point game, no one in his right mind would risk a game for pride or retribution! Let alone a star player like Ovechkin! What’s more, since the NHL instituted the fine for penalties in the last five minutes, goons have seen a considerable drop in their end-of-game shifts average. That being the case, Ovechkin has slim chances of even being able to lash out at the guy who deserves it the most!
And even furthermore, since you do not take penalties near the end of the game, the scrappy, dirty guys won’t be playing that style. Without them playing that style of hockey, what is A.O.’s incentive to go out and take a penalty? Your argument is not thought out to the slightest extent.
Any player with some sort of smarts inside his head knows that you do not take penalties late in the game, especially the Ovechkins of the world! All things point against him having a reason, or even an opportunity to take a penalty! As such, your statistic is utterly baseless.
Oh, and mentioning Ovechkin’s statements to NHL.com is really redundant, I must say. Did you know that players coming into the league go for a one week, hands-on session to teach them skills necessary for handling the media? This generally takes place a little while before their first training camp.
I happen to have connections to Carlo Colaicavo. Where does he play? Oh yes, in T. Dot where the media lurks on guys like hungry vultures! I think he is a pretty reliable source to give out this sort of information, wouldn’t you think? NHLers are told what to say to the media.
But even furthermore, Ovechkin has very limited command of the English to begin with! He is basically spoon-fed what to say to the media, as is, for the most part, the rest of the league. Again, another case of handing in the homework but not bothering to get it right on your part.
Who are the eloquent speakers in the National Hockey League? The coaches. Craig MacTavish, Paul Maurice and company are the ones who are allowed to speak their mind. Other than the Jeremy Roenicks, most others conform to the ideals set by the league.
But even so, it really does not matter what he says in the first place, because, as I proved above, Ovechkin’s actions conflict with the message he (or rather, the Capitals organization) is apparently trying to convey. NHL.com has called him selfish, his coach has benched him as a result of that very attitude, hockey analysts stand mostly united in their position on his attitude, and, closer to home, even Beans15, a respected member on these forums, had this to say about him:
quote:
‘’Crosby could have gotten the league max for sure. He, however, made the choice to take a little less money which gives Pittsburgh more money to spend on players to help him.
Ovechkin's choice, on the other hand was all about his money. Compare to Crosby's contract, it's about a million a year that Pitt has to spend that Washington doesn't. Maybe Ovechkin feels that Washington is not close to having a contending team so he was worried about himself.
In the end, it doesn't matter who we think could or should be making more money. It is the choice of the player. It appears that Crosby is more focused on winning and giving his team an opportunity to have decent players to help in winning.’’
Here is your link:
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3344
Moving along, I will give you this: the point you bring up of Ovechkin being the Russian Crosby is very strong. On the surface, it would seem like I have no choice but to be impressed. Wrong again.
You thought I would pull a ‘LeafsFan_101’ and concede rather than do a little research, did you not? No siree! I did my homework! It was hard, and I gave up a few lunch recesses for it, but it was very rewarding in the end!
It helped that I actually have a number of Russians among faculty at my school. The one who provided me with the most relevant and eye-opening material is a young girl in her mid-twenties names Ms. Sikaretsky who recently emigrated from Russia.
I asked her if she watched hockey, and she said ‘from time to time.’ I laughed, and said ‘Oh but surely you know of Alex Ovechkin!’ She replied ‘Yes, everyone has.’
Intrigued, I decided to follow this trail she had left open for me.
‘So, tell me what do you think of him?’
Needless to say, that sparked the beginning of a good chat. She told me that Russians, while they do admire his work, are split in their opinions of him.
She went on to say something that you may have read in a previous post, where I posted an idea related to me from the lips of Ken Dryden.
Here is the link:
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1733&whichpage=7
In a nutshell, Dryden explained the collective feeling of the Canucks coming out of the Summit Series. They thought the matches would be a cakewalk, as they were clearly more skilled athletes. However, they did not train and play a team game like the Russians, and they almost paid with national pride for it.
The Russian hockey teams have a character of unity and all for one and all for one spirit embedded in them which are deeply rooted in their national communist history.
Conversely, Canadians have traditionally been very individualist in comparison. The Montreal dynasties, for example, were made up of a myriad of extremely talented individuals and did not play a team-first type of game in nearly the same way our Eastern counterparts do. You look up and down that roster, and there were not nearly as many role players on the Habs roster. Russians pride themselves on their ability to play the sport on a team level.
Along comes Ovechkin and single-handedly rewrites conventional Russian thinking. Sure, on his Washington team it works. But on an international level?
I already mentioned how he is a shadow of his NHL self on the international stage and gave a couple stats to back myself up. Not only that, but as Miss Sikaretsky said, Russian newscasts back home were calling him a liability in one of his poorer tournies (can’t remember off the top of my head which).
But, consider this. We all know he went through the Dynamo system. How did he fare over there? He played well. But he had a lot of haters to size up with all the fans.
Once, when they were young, they played a pre-season tournament against a visiting Japan team. This was big because it was the first such thing. Obviously, Russia was the fan favourite.
In the first game, Ovechkin simply lit them up, scoring something like nine goals. But the Japanese learned their lesson. Ethnically, as we all know, the Orientals are very respectful people who believe in team work. For example, (as an aside)- I think hitting was not allowed in the tournament.
Anyways, Ovechkin comes back the next game and they are all over him. Guess what? Game over. The series is tied.
Both sides now had their lessons to learn, and heading into game 3, the coach finally cracked down on AO and told him he could not be the star but had to buy into the team concept. Did he listen? He lugged the puck the length of the ice for the span of the game, did not pass, and did not comply with the team concept, thus humiliating his town by losing it. It made local headlines and papers because it was such a big defeat.
Haven’t heard that one, have you? Didn’t think so.
Now, as Miss Sikaretsky relates, there are all kinds of kids going through the system who are not adopting to the programs in place. After all, Ovechkin is a star in the NHL so why should they listen to the ‘old-fashioned’ coaches.
For every AO that comes out of this mindset, dozens are throwing away shots at success and destining themselves at a young age to the fate of the beer leagues.
She said this got even bigger recently, when ‘some other Russian star’ (I helped her out and told her it was Sergei Federov) wound up on the same team as AO and they made the long trek to the post-season.
So, as you see, the story is not one-sided – far from it! Whereas Crosby walks the walks to follow up with the little talk he does, Ovechkin is the first to tell the very site that calls him selfish that he is all about winning when his comments to Huet, along with his salary, as well as this little anecdote, on top of his being benched this year, and many other episodes illustrate exactly the opposite.
In the other corner of the ring, Crosby leads his team on team-building excursions (kind of funny that trips to the bar, babysitting / washing dishes, and hockey scrimmages are team building excursions but hey, that’s life in the big city!), takes pay cuts to keep guys in town, makes visits to Kids’ hospitals, and is the better player on the ice. Plus, he is not even close to done yet!
I implore on all the members to really think about all the facts, everything out there, and not to let the media-bias play a role in their opinions on the Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. All it takes is the right person with enough passion to dig deep and make an effort to defend Sid, and you see how things are really tipped in his favour. A lot of Crosby fans gave up this season, and would never have accepted the Crosby side of a Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate with such open arms as I did.
But, I do not play band Wagoner. I stuck by Sid the Kid, even though it was an uphill battle, because it is far more rewarding in the long run.
I am glad I could do Sidney Crosby proud and on a small level, silence those critics who wrote him off this season.
Failure to comply with the most basic of debating rules
I’m sorry, I have to do this. There is a clear discrepancy going on that I need to point out. Beans said ‘get your facts straight’ – well, have you?
Leafsfan_101, I want to start on a positive note. Good job my friend. I enjoyed reading your post, and I actually smiled. There was a part in there that was educating and interesting. From that standpoint, kudos – you have made Ovechkin proud and have done a service to this forum! However, that was one point, and that was the Ovechkin = Russian Crosby point. As it turns out, that is not the case as I showed above. You seemingly made that one up. I would question how much of a contribution it was, but I will give it to you nonetheless.
Had to get that out before my temporary diplomacy starts to fade Nothing personal, Leafsfan_101, but from now until my closing remarks you won’t see any of that girly nice stuff! I am going to dissect your argument and attack every little detail, so be prepared!
Right off the bat, you were a little careless in your choice of reference, my friend. Taking material right off the number one reference point of information, Wikipedia, and almost reiterating it word for word is a debating no-no!
Let us read what the online encyclopedia has to say:
quote:
‘’Alexander Ovechkin is the son of Mikhail Ovechkin, a former professional football (soccer) player, and Tatyana Ovechkina who won two Olympic gold medals while competing for the Soviet women's basketball team in the 1976 Summer Olympics at Montreal and in 1980 at Moscow.[1]
The first signs of the Ovechkin's future came when he was a child. At the age of two, in a Soviet toy store, Alexander grabbed a toy stick and helmet and refused to let go. His parents treasure the picture to this day. As a small child, whenever he saw a hockey game on TV, he "threw all his toys" and ran to the TV. He "protested strongly" if his parents tried to change the channel. His parents say they knew he would be an athlete when Alexander chose to run up the steps to their apartment rather than take the elevator.
He began playing hockey at the age of 7. Soon after he began, however, he had to postpone his hockey career because his parents were unable to take him to the rink. But one of Ovechkin's coaches saw Ovechkin's talent and communicated to his parents that he should continue to play hockey. Ovechkin's brother, Sergei, who later died in a car accident, saw that Alexander loved hockey and insisted that he be allowed to return. Ovechkin resumed playing a few months later and never looked back.
In Russia, hockey teams build players in their systems from childhood. Ovechkin began playing in the Dynamo Moscow system. At 16, he made his debut for Dynamo Moscow in the Russian Superleague in the 2001-2002 season.’’
The link is provided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Ovechkin
Take a look back at LeafsFan_101’s post and you will see that a third of it is the work of collaborators who give there information to the Wikipedia organization! The irony of the matter is that this is the exact third which was intended to meet my call for you to add original, never-seen before insight to the debate.
Plagiarism is not something taken lightly and not something I, or anyone else, should be willing to overlook. You wanted to capitalize (no pun intended!) on my ‘mistakes’ – well, explain that one if you will!
Moving along, we get to your draft story. Even though I could not provide an exact link, I remember at the time big headlines and coverage on none other than Washington’s team site. The best I could find was this year’s edition, but you can see that if they do this for Backstrom, they undoubtedly must have made even more of a to-do for Ovechkin! I remember it, but if you do not take my word for it, this is the link to this year’s article, proving that they obviously hold such things annually:
http://capitals.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=318369
To say you had to dig deep for that information is bending the facts, to be politically correct.
On the flip side, you look at my debate. People say ‘there is so much information out there on Crosby’. I challenge you to Google up my information. I pose the question to those who say I had the easier position, what would you have done? Clearly, Ovechkin is the favourite. How would you have countered the clear and seemingly flawless arguments that have been circulating this year? Leafsfan_101 just had to repeat verbatim the types of arguments heard around the bar at Boston Pizzas all over the country.
Not only did I rise to the challenge very well and turn the tables on AO, by showing how Ovechkin is clearly not the standout, I even added another element to it, and that was the aspect of the man as opposed to the aspect of the player. Leafsfan_101 posed that challenge to me, the challenge to add something unique to the debate, and I took it. Again, I ask you, what would you people have done? Everyone is under the façade that Ovechkin is the most passionate, happiest guy in the NHL. Clearly, I was battling from a position of weakness if I chose to accept that challenge. But I did, and I came out literally uncontested, due to the fact that Leafsfan_101 could not meet the very same criteria he had set out for me.
This challenge is the only area of the debate where even a little bit of work would have been required, and he shied away from it.
What does that say?
What he did manage to do was knock Crosby like all the Sid-haters out there in cyber-space. That’s fair game, no denying it. But I knew something was up when he said even Crosby teammates are ‘fed up with his antics’ and other such seemingly made up, spur of the moment statements. All I did was ask him to provide his sources. If, in fact, he had a source, it may have strengthened his position.
Yet, what did he reply?
quote:
‘Why did I choose not to heed your request? Because it was a disadvantage to me.’
It was a disadvantage for him to do so?! There’s news to me! Think about it guys: Why in heaven’s name would it weaken your position to provide your sources? Maybe because your source is yourself!
Leafsfan_101 clearly had the upper hand in terms of on-ice play. However, I made a big case for Crosby, to the point where I even convinced others on this website that he is the better on ice-player now and in the future, even though the stats we see daily (the goals on NHL.com) are powerful enough to convince those uneducated among us in the hockey world otherwise.
Then on the other hand, and I can’t stress how much of a double standard we are operating on: I pose the very same challenge back at its originator, and he does not even address it! Other than the fact that he clearly conceded that Crosby is better off the ice which is a huge debating blow, he did not as much as put up a fight where he could have possibly salvaged the situation.
Conclusion
It was a fun debate. I enjoyed it, LeafsFan_101. I bear no hard feelings whatsoever against you, bud. Nothing personal at all, I happen to like you. Just had to make that last little rant in the spirit of debating, but all in all I enjoyed myself and look forward to being the candidate chosen to move on, if you guys deem it fit 
"You're playing worse every day and right now you're playing like the middle of next week."
-Herb Brooks |
Edited by - Alex on 04/14/2008 17:48:41 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 18:39:38
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Voting May Begin:
LF101: 6
Alex: 2
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/15/2008 18:05:12 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 18:50:26
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My vote easily goes to LF_101.
Alex, you seem to be focusing on how LF101 didnt follow the exact rules of the debate. But, I find this remark quite hipocritical. Was the question Who Is A Better Markatable Player? Was It Who Is The Better Person? NO. It was simply Crosby vs. Ovechkin. In your first couple of posts you seemed to be focusing on the better human being. LF101 did this also, but in addition also focused on the HOCKEY FACTS. Mind you this is all early on in the debate.
I am some-what interpreting from you Alex that you had the harder side to battle. BUT, you were the one practically jumping out of your computer seat to defend The Next One. Very Interesting.
Nuff Said.
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/15/2008 04:35:16 |
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Ethan
Top Prospect
15 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 19:00:25
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Without a doubt Alex. Anyone who says otherwise is letting the debate part of this contest fall by the wayside!
Chrissake its a DEBATE contest Alex did just that, debated everything and anything. LF101 made a fool out of himself! Alex caught him contradict himself like 10 times!
Also, I'm sorry, but Alex clearly had the harder side. Everything LF101 said is old news and Alex had to find a good way to prove him wrong which he did well
You guys are not voting for LF101 you are voting for Ovechkin you should just know that. It is clearly biased based on your personal preference as opposed to the quality of the debate, just like PainTrain's was. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 21:27:25
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That's a disrespectful statement to both myself and everyone who voted for my arguments.
Thank you, "Ethan".
Edited to add: Are you actually suggesting that I am more popular in these parts than Paintrain?!? That's crazytalk, methinks! |
Edited by - 99pickles on 04/14/2008 22:01:36 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 21:59:46
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Apparently I found it much less difficult to read Alex's final post than Beans did. I neither lost interest, nor forgot what his points were while he was explaining them. While doing so, I even watched the dying regulation minutes of tonight's Avs/Wild game...and a great game it is! Heading for O/T!!
As for the debate...
Based on the criteria presented, both debaters were well within their right to argue it the way they saw fit. I admired Alex's unique and original approach, and I felt that both combatants were arguing their side well enough.
However, plagiarized or not, LF101 met and equaled the "nice guy that overcame the obstacles" efforts of Alex's debate.
I believe I consider this match-up much closer than others do, but my vote goes to LeafsFan101, nonetheless. |
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Guest4477
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Posted - 04/15/2008 : 01:12:21
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I vote Alex:
Originality scores big points and he did a great job in expanding the argument and covering all aspects of Ovechkin vs. Crosby, after all, it was never specified that this was an "on-ice" debate....although I wonder why Alex would state that Ovechkin is the fan favourite? Maybe trying to "buy" some sympathy underdog votes... |
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Guest4138
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Posted - 04/15/2008 : 02:34:58
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| Leafsfan by a landslide. If this were a competition about being longwinded and boring Alex takes the cake. Cold hard facts had this sealed up from Leafsfan's first post. Took the numbers and made them work for him. Well done. |
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Guest4138
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Posted - 04/15/2008 : 02:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4138
Leafsfan by a landslide. If this were a competition about being longwinded and boring Alex takes the cake. Cold hard facts had this sealed up from Leafsfan's first post. Took the numbers and made them work for him. Well done.
That was a stupid comment, I'd take it back but I can't. My vote stays with Leafsfan because he managed to get his point across clearly in the least amount of words. It was all action. Except when Alex wanted an Ovechkin history lesson .
Alex you had the way harder side, my mind was made up before I read it. Not the right way of going about it. You used some creative angles but when it comes down to it he used the numbers more to his advantage. They are both good guys, we can see that, but what earns the millions is the contribution on ice.
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Guest4138
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Posted - 04/15/2008 : 03:01:23
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| Oh and your research was nothing short of exceptional. You even out researched Leafsfan by finding his sources and calling him out. Good for a laugh. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 04:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4477
I vote Alex:
Originality scores big points and he did a great job in expanding the argument and covering all aspects of Ovechkin vs. Crosby, after all, it was never specified that this was an "on-ice" debate....although I wonder why Alex would state that Ovechkin is the fan favourite? Maybe trying to "buy" some sympathy underdog votes...
Sorry guests but please dont vote in this thread. This is for members. You thoughts are definetely welcome in the comments thread.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 11:37:03
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My vote goes for Leafsfan_101.
I am not debating here, so don't come and attack my opinion...But any remarks about my remarks are welcome
As others have stated here, he had the stats on his side. As a hockey fan, I care less about what Sid the kid had for breakfast, and more about what has he done on the ice lately.
I don't read/hear too much about players' background stories or what they are doing in the community currently. I could care less actually. So my opinion is based on what I see in a game.
I have come to see both players and I like the fact that Ovechkin scores a lot of goals and in key situations. When I see crosby trying to score goals, I see him try to make his goals "look" flashy. It looks like he cares more about HOW he scores rather than if he scores at all. I guess it's easier to make a pass look flashy than a goal...But I digress...I am sorry, but (from a personal standpoint) I don't get hyped up by seeing a flashy pass. I like to see the puck go in the net. Ovechkin makes that happen, so he fulfills my hockey needs .
The other reason that I like Ovechkin more is his interviews are never boring. As to your point Alex about Ovechkin saying what the NHL tells him to say is utter bunk. What player have you ever heard from say the words: "Only Ovechkin can stop Ovechkin!" I know he said it in fun, but that is what I like about him. He gives a little cheek in his interviews, not the run-of-the-mill canned responses that players (like crosby) always make: "We have to get everyone on the same page"; "We have to play better in our zone"; "we have to do this..."; "we have to do that..." - BORING!!!!
Ovechkin brings a fresh breath of honesty and realism to the NHL. When asked "Do you look at the stats to see who's doing better, you or crosby?", what does he answer? "Of course I look at the stats. Everyone else is comparing us to see who is better, so I look too..." It is this unbridled honesty that makes his interviews so much more fun to watch.
So, like others, my mind was probably already made up.
Also, you could try a little more humility instead of claiming yourself the champ before the voting was even in. It probably would have swayed some fence sitters in your favour. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 13:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperSakic
My vote goes for Leafsfan_101.
I am not debating here, so don't come and attack my opinion...But any remarks about my remarks are welcome
As others have stated here, he had the stats on his side. As a hockey fan, I care less about what Sid the kid had for breakfast, and more about what has he done on the ice lately.
I don't read/hear too much about players' background stories or what they are doing in the community currently. I could care less actually. So my opinion is based on what I see in a game.
I have come to see both players and I like the fact that Ovechkin scores a lot of goals and in key situations. When I see crosby trying to score goals, I see him try to make his goals "look" flashy. It looks like he cares more about HOW he scores rather than if he scores at all. I guess it's easier to make a pass look flashy than a goal...But I digress...I am sorry, but (from a personal standpoint) I don't get hyped up by seeing a flashy pass. I like to see the puck go in the net. Ovechkin makes that happen, so he fulfills my hockey needs .
The other reason that I like Ovechkin more is his interviews are never boring. As to your point Alex about Ovechkin saying what the NHL tells him to say is utter bunk. What player have you ever heard from say the words: "Only Ovechkin can stop Ovechkin!" I know he said it in fun, but that is what I like about him. He gives a little cheek in his interviews, not the run-of-the-mill canned responses that players (like crosby) always make: "We have to get everyone on the same page"; "We have to play better in our zone"; "we have to do this..."; "we have to do that..." - BORING!!!!
Ovechkin brings a fresh breath of honesty and realism to the NHL. When asked "Do you look at the stats to see who's doing better, you or crosby?", what does he answer? "Of course I look at the stats. Everyone else is comparing us to see who is better, so I look too..." It is this unbridled honesty that makes his interviews so much more fun to watch.
So, like others, my mind was probably already made up.
Also, you could try a little more humility instead of claiming yourself the champ before the voting was even in. It probably would have swayed some fence sitters in your favour.
Hey SuperSakic. You are not part of this debate but you opinion is always welcome. Your vote will not count but by any meens keep commenting but try to keep in the comments section.
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 15:29:28
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Very ambitious, Alex. As was mentioned before, though, you were quite jubilant to take on the Crosby side of the debate, yet by the end of it you expressed that you were engaging in an uphill battle. I agreed with you at that point. Sad thing is, it wasn't Crosby's fault. It wasn't Ovechkin's fault. It wasn't Leafsfan's fault.
Your initial post may as well have been Crosby vs. OILINONTARIO. I don't care if he does Mario's dishes or visits sick kids about as often as the top 30 sick kids visitors in the NHL do. I don't deny that he is a genuinely good person, but let's face it, he is being marketed by the NHL in this direction. I wouldn't even bother bringing this up if you hadn't made a point of painting Ovie as an NHL yes-man as far as talking to the media. To add to the previous Ovie (or as you and Ethan refer to him, OA) quote, I remember the first time I saw an interview with him; Q: "Who is your favorite player in the NHL?" A: "Me!" THAT is something special that would never leave the lips of the 'ultimate yes-man'.
In your last post, Alex, you dropped the names of Ken Dryden, Carlo Colaiacovo, and some Russian girl who watches hockey from time to time, and has never heard of Sergei Fedorov. Dryden's quote was from 36 years ago, Colaiacovo's was almost insightful, but easy to dismiss, and as far as Miss Whatsernameov's comments, I fail to see how she is as reliable a source as the often unreliable Wickipedia.
I beleive you also stated that during your extensive research, you managed to get newspaper articles faxed to you from Russia. I don't recall seeing any quotes or sources as a result of this. You indicated that the Russian girl gave you some information that you had read, but you couldn't recall the name of the publication. For someone who has been so insistent on divulging sources, this seemed somewhat bizarre.
You seem to think yourself something of a connoiseur of the English language, judging by your writing style. If you insist on using the language in the way you do, make sure that your spelling, grammar and punctuation are perfect.
If this seems like it is nothing but a one-sided attack on Alex, that is because LF_101 did not even have to reply. Alex destroyed himself, and in the process was disrespectful, cloying, hypocritical, arrogant and delusional.
My vote goes to LeafsFan_101
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 04/15/2008 15:36:44 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 15:52:33
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It's an easy vote for me. And it follows with Beans saying quality before quantity. LF101 went right to the point of what he does on the ice. Alex wrote the life story of Sidney.
Leafsfan101 gets my vote. |
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Patchy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
529 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 16:46:38
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Hey LRP, I posted my vote in the comments thread.
But incase you didn't get it ----> LF101 gets my vote. For the reasons I stated in my other post.
The one comment I have about Alex's debate: I thought it was smart to talk about Crosby off the ice, but the more I read it...you were only catering to the people here in Canada, Ovechkin is exactly the same in Russia! Even though most of the members here are Canadian, you still have to think about the other side...
~~Go Leafs Go~~ |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 17:46:20
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Alex hands down boys.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
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Ottawa Oilers
Rookie
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 20:42:02
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Thanks for deleting my post as a guest, happy now im on my username? Now I will say the exact same thing again hopefully this time since it's by "Ottawa Oilers" not "Guest 8815" it will get some respect...
I think LF_101 won this hands down, when comparing hockey players I don't look at what he does off the ice, besides leadership, I look at the players play, stats and strengths. Look at Avery he may stir up the ice and do soem questionable things but regardless he gets the job done, very well at that. LF_101 nice debate.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 04:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ottawa Oilers
Thanks for deleting my post as a guest, happy now im on my username? Now I will say the exact same thing again hopefully this time since it's by "Ottawa Oilers" not "Guest 8815" it will get some respect...
I think LF_101 won this hands down, when comparing hockey players I don't look at what he does off the ice, besides leadership, I look at the players play, stats and strengths. Look at Avery he may stir up the ice and do soem questionable things but regardless he gets the job done, very well at that. LF_101 nice debate.
I can respect that. But I would ask you this:
Realistically, you liked Ovechkin before and you will like him more after. And probably for all the reasons that LF101 mentioned if not most. Does it not follow then, that when you vote for LF101 you are voting for Ovechkin, not for the debate he made? Again, I really want people to think what they are voting for here.
Alot of people come out and say ''Ovechkin is better I vote for him.'' It is not about your personal preference guys, it is about who made the best debate in the given circumstance. What would you have done on Crosby's side? I think I managed to take a side no one was on and make a great case for him!
Just think about it long and hard, and try and figure out if in fact you are voting for Ovechkin or for LF101.
"You're playing worse every day and right now you're playing like the middle of next week."
-Herb Brooks |
Edited by - Alex on 04/16/2008 04:21:38 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 04:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
quote:
Originally posted by Ottawa Oilers
Thanks for deleting my post as a guest, happy now im on my username? Now I will say the exact same thing again hopefully this time since it's by "Ottawa Oilers" not "Guest 8815" it will get some respect...
I think LF_101 won this hands down, when comparing hockey players I don't look at what he does off the ice, besides leadership, I look at the players play, stats and strengths. Look at Avery he may stir up the ice and do soem questionable things but regardless he gets the job done, very well at that. LF_101 nice debate.
I can respect that. But I would ask you this:
Realistically, you liked Ovechkin before and you will like him more after. And probably for all the reasons that LF101 mentioned if not most. Does it not follow then, that when you vote for LF101 you are voting for Ovechkin, not for the debate he made? Again, I really want people to think what they are voting for here.
Alot of people come out and say ''Ovechkin is better I vote for him.'' It is not about your personal preference guys, it is about who made the best debate in the given circumstance. What would you have done on Crosby's side? I think I managed to take a side no one was on and make a great case for him!
Just think about it long and hard, and try and figure out if in fact you are voting for Ovechkin or for LF101.
"You're playing worse every day and right now you're playing like the middle of next week."
-Herb Brooks
Alex, you seem to come off as saying that you think that Ovechkins side was easier to back and that Crosbys wasnt. Then why were you ecstatic when I asked you if you would be interested in Crosby?
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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shinnyafterschool
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
375 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 06:29:19
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My vote goes to Alex..
"Desire is the most important factor in the success of any athlete. " |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 08:00:00
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Sorry Leafs Rock Planet. I didn't want to bother digging through the slew of posts to find the comments thread so I posted here. Also, I didn't know you had to sign up to be a commenter on this thread. I didn't know about it earlier, otherwise, I would have thrown in my name to be a commenter. No hard feelings....
Why does everyone think that by adding the word "pimp" to their name or title, all of a sudden makes them cool? Is it just me? Am I too old to "get it"? |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 13:53:06
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quote:
Alex, you seem to come off as saying that you think that Ovechkins side was easier to back and that Crosbys wasnt. Then why were you ecstatic when I asked you if you would be interested in Crosby?
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
Because my personal preference happens to be Crosby. However, you cant say for a minute that most people like him more. Most everyone is on Ovie's side, and it is hard to fight against the opinion of the masses.
I was actually laughing at the irony of the situation: the NHL's poster child is being questioned in terms of support. You asked me if I was comfortable with backing him up, which makes sense because I knew I was heading into a tough uphill battle. If you told someone back in 2007 that they would get the Crosby side of a debate they would be ecstatic, which was why I found humour in the fact that you were asking me.
In reality though, you and I and the rest of the forum know that Crosby's side is much harder to defend
quote:
I think LF_101 won this hands down, when comparing hockey players I don't look at what he does off the ice, besides leadership, I look at the players play, stats and strengths. LF_101 nice debate.
My point exactly  |
Edited by - Alex on 04/16/2008 14:03:27 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 14:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperSakic
Sorry Leafs Rock Planet. I didn't want to bother digging through the slew of posts to find the comments thread so I posted here. Also, I didn't know you had to sign up to be a commenter on this thread. I didn't know about it earlier, otherwise, I would have thrown in my name to be a commenter. No hard feelings....
Why does everyone think that by adding the word "pimp" to their name or title, all of a sudden makes them cool? Is it just me? Am I too old to "get it"?
No problem Sakic.
I have just put out a request to Andy asking if he wants to fill our last spot. If he rejects than I would gladly like to have you join.
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 14:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
quote:
Originally posted by SuperSakic
Sorry Leafs Rock Planet. I didn't want to bother digging through the slew of posts to find the comments thread so I posted here. Also, I didn't know you had to sign up to be a commenter on this thread. I didn't know about it earlier, otherwise, I would have thrown in my name to be a commenter. No hard feelings....
Why does everyone think that by adding the word "pimp" to their name or title, all of a sudden makes them cool? Is it just me? Am I too old to "get it"?
No problem Sakic.
I have just put out a request to Andy asking if he wants to fill our last spot. If he rejects than I would gladly like to have you join.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
1) I vote Alex
2) I already asked to join
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 15:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
quote:
Originally posted by SuperSakic
Sorry Leafs Rock Planet. I didn't want to bother digging through the slew of posts to find the comments thread so I posted here. Also, I didn't know you had to sign up to be a commenter on this thread. I didn't know about it earlier, otherwise, I would have thrown in my name to be a commenter. No hard feelings....
Why does everyone think that by adding the word "pimp" to their name or title, all of a sudden makes them cool? Is it just me? Am I too old to "get it"?
No problem Sakic.
I have just put out a request to Andy asking if he wants to fill our last spot. If he rejects than I would gladly like to have you join.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
1) I vote Alex
2) I already asked to join
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey''
Oh sorry about that Bradthebaddad. You are now our final member seeing as you were already on the waiting list.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 15:57:13
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Thanks for the support guys. I tried to win it, and with 7 confirmed votes, I have. One other thing.
Alex, stop posting saying you were at a disadvantage. Look at the Crosby vs. Ovechkin poll. Crosby has 30% more people saying he was better then Ovechkin. Some comments include that Crosby is better and they like him more. Crosby is Canadian, had a breakout year last year and is projected to be one of the greatest Canadian Players ever. And you were at a disadvantage!
Your last post in the debate may have been your downfall. You were, as OILINONTARIO said, disrespectful, cloying, hypocritical, arrogant and delusional. Can you blame him? You named yourself champ on your last post and expected that to happen.
You were disrespectful to me and my argument by claiming I won because Ovie is more popular then Crosby. Looks like you took the easy way out and don't think you are accountable. Look at what people are saying about this debate. People have even linked you to another member (Ethan). You disrespected this argument as a whole and all the members who shared their opinions.
Sorry Alex, but I won fair and square. And saying I won because I had the stronger foot to stand on in the argument is BS. Face it, I had the better argument. The facts are there staring you in the face.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 15:59:38
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I just wanted to throw out that the side of Crosby was EASIER to argue than the side of Ovechkin. Crosby is the Canadian Golden Boy while Ovechkin is the Russian that everyone is excited about now, but that has proven to change quickly.
Proof is in this exact site last season. So many people were calling down Ovechkin because of a low +/- and blamed him for Washington's lack of success.
Crosby is the easier side to argue, not Ovechkin. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 16:03:01
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Ok so LF_101 has officially won his round against Alex.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 20:08:03
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So what's up next, LRP? Would you like suggestions? I'm sure there would be no shortage, and you could make the final decision. I've got one. "Is Don Cherry a good spokesman for the NHL?" I know I could go both ways on that one. How about, "Should NHL players take part in the Winter Olympics?".
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 20:37:02
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| Here is a good one for you guys. Are you for or against the idea to increase the size of nets? |
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Topic |
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The Great Debate- LF_101 vs. Alex 
