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Guest6475
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 Posted - 05/26/2008 : 17:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6678
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Originally posted by andyhack
Let's look at the roster again. Although I admit the '86 team was "good" (rather than "mediocre"), when I look at the group below, I don't think it's so far fetched to say that, compared to other championship teams of the last 40 years, this group was, relatively speaking, "mediocre".
WELL PAST HIS PRIME Bob Gainey
Rick Green
Ryan Walter
WELL PAST HIS PRIME Mario Tremblay
Bobby Smith
WELL PAST HIS PRIME Larry Robinson
Guy Carbonneau
Chris Chelios
Petr Svoboda
Mats Naslund
Claude Lemieux
Mike McPhee
Brian Skrudland
Stephane Richer
So Roy led a good (but arguably the most "mediocre") group of guys in the last 40 years to the Cup in '86. I mean, don't get me wrong, these are good players above, some very good. But line them up against just about any other Cup team and I think you'll see what I mean. And the fact that they went 7 games against Hartford in the second round that year shows on the one hand that they were no powerhouse, and on the other hand the importance of Roy again (as in 5 out of those 7 games, the Whalers were held to two or less goals!).
Sorry Hab fans - but come to grips with it - in '86 a gem of a goalie helped in a big way to bring you (or your brothers, sisters, parents) a lot of joy. On this night of all nights, perhaps some of you can understand this fact. Or more to the point, you can cherish and APPRECIATE this fact.
Edit - oh yes, one team that perhaps rivals this group for the "good but, relatively speaking, mediocre" title is the '93 Habs (with a WELL past his prime Denis Savard by the way!) - who was their goalie again?
Yeah but you are ignoring the players were in their prime and the future rising talent...Chelios (future Norris defensemen) Lemieux (proved to be one of the greatest playoff performers of all time), Carbonneau (three-time Selke winner) Richer (2-time 50 goal scorer and pretty good goal scorer over his career) Naslund (scored over 100 points in 85-86 an averaged 90 points per season in his 7 year NHL career) Bobby Smith (1036 points in in only 1077 games).
And even Robinson had 82 points in a year he was supposedly well past his prime and he played 6 more years after that one!!!
The 93 Habs had a pretty good collection of players too, they were just badly underestimated (even this year's Wings were underestimated by some people so go figure). The 93 Habs were not mediocre unless you consider 6th overall out of 24 teams to be mediocre.
I agree the Habs would not have won the 86 and 93 Cups without Roy but a team not winning the Cup without their goalie can be said about almost ANY Cup winning team...the Wings of the 90s were upset a few times until they got Vernon, the Devils would have won their Cups without Brodeur (and really the 95 Devils were just as badly overlooked as the 93 Habs).
STRONGLY disagree.
Any of the Canadiens teams who won in the 70's, the early 80's Islanders, the mid 80's Oilers, the early 90's Penguins, the late 90's Red Wings. They all could have and would have won the Cup with just about any other goalie. In fact, I can think of only the Devils, Stars, Avalanche, and the 86 and 93 Candiens that would not have won without their goalie. Pretty much any other Cup winner in the past 30 years could have been replaced with a different goalie. Some of them could have won with a shooter tutor in net.
Roy was the absolute largest reason, and therefore only reason that the Candiens have any Cups in the 80's or 90's.
the comparison is to broduer not teams of 70s no team can andyhack said in the last 40 yrs go back ans see where montreal finished in standings i stand by no 1 goalie of all time should set at least one record aside from playing 20 yrs. he has most playoff games so that means his team was usually good eough to make play offs . Question how many wins did his team average and the a year or two e before roy the great penny took the cdns far |
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Guest5549
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Posted - 10/19/2008 : 03:10:37
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BRODEUR is by far the better goaltender, I think Roy was the king of over sized pads and very very much over rated, while he had some good years in the beginning, I have seen many many goaltenders have some good years, and some great playoff performances. You allways talk about the Devils and thier trap, if you really watch allot of Avs games, you will see, there is not allot of quality shots lets thru, mostly difficult angle shots, the Avs D is set up that way so you could not get to many quality chances, I have seen many Avs games in Denver, and my god, the puck could hit him in the chest without him even moving or seeing it coming and they are yelling what a save, what a save. Roy was a positional goaly, and the Avs D would only allow shots from the side angle 90% of the time, I dont know how many times I have seen a 5 hole shot thru his legs, I think the media tried to hype him up to promote the game, but the man was not in any sense worthy of it. I have pictures of his earlier days and his days with Colorado, you would be amazed at the Pad size difference, I do know his was a topic of discussion when the changed the rules for limiting pad size, and I do know the rules were getting stricter the year he retired. You look at his game 7 records the last 5 or so years, he was the MAN you did NOT want in there, Roy allways blamed others for his shortcomings, Brodeur did not, Personally I like most people cant wait till Brodeur, beats his record, At least it will belong to someone who loves the game, instead of himself, someone who puts the team winning in front of personal records. Good luck Martin
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 04:00:09
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Here's an interesting example of how arbitrary statistics can be used to prove a point. At the start of the season, Brodeur was 62 games shy of having accrued the most career losses of all time. Therefore, if he plays four more years, he will almost certainly be considered the worst goaltender ever.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
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Guest4910
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Posted - 10/19/2008 : 17:01:43
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I think it's hard to compare 2 goalers of 2 different generations...
but if i have to decide who's best, i would say Roy. Roy won 2 stanley cup with Montreal by himself....those in Colorado were because of stacked team. At the end of the 80s and beginning of 90s, Roy was way ahead of all the others. The good goalies back then were Mike Vernon, Ed belfour, Pete Peters, Ron Hextall, Kirk McClean and Grant Fuhr, but they were a big step below Roy.
For Brodeur, he is good, but is he that good compare to Luongo, Hasek, Turco, Lundqvist, Kipprusoff...
Roy played with those tiny pads when he started, and with those pads, goalies needed great reflexes and a great technic. Roy was one of the first to use the butterfly style.
In recent years, NHL was talking about reducing goalies' equipment, and who's the first to fight that idea? Yes, Brodeur... |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 11:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
Here's an interesting example of how arbitrary statistics can be used to prove a point. At the start of the season, Brodeur was 62 games shy of having accrued the most career losses of all time. Therefore, if he plays four more years, he will almost certainly be considered the worst goaltender ever.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009.
I love this!
(for the humour though because I choose Brodeur in this debate)
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:51:54
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| Brodeur is better because he never played for the Habs. |
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Guest9615
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Posted - 11/01/2008 : 16:03:25
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| hmm, I thought this thread was about goaltending |
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Guest7926
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Posted - 11/02/2008 : 02:51:38
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| all you roy haters are all idoits, and for the guy above me, who cares what he told his son to do, the kid can make up his own mind, what was the other goalie thinking? Oh he come the other goalie maybe he wants to have a chat without his mask, blocker, and cathcer on. the other goalie was and still is a idoit to. Brodeur is and always will be a great goalie but Roy is and always will be far better. Even Brodeur has said it himself. Roy haters get over it he better and that's that |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2008 : 12:35:15
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I don't hate either, but I like Brodeur better even though I'm a huge Habs fan.. and actually for the guy who said Brodeur was spearheading the smaller equipment move .. roy actually did .. Luongo is quoted saying that roy just doesn't want other goalies to break his records..
Chicago Blackhawks GM
Jesus didn't tap. |
Edited by - Axey on 11/02/2008 12:35:40 |
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Guest6503
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Posted - 11/02/2008 : 13:40:02
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| Definetly Roy is a great goalie but look at there attitudes and I'd have to say that Brodeur is a team player. Brodeur by the way is also going for the wins record and the shut-out record which proves that he isn't just a top 5 goalie. |
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fanoleaf
Rookie
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 11:24:53
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sticking to the topic of goaltending they have both been great for thier teams and for the game of Hockey. Broduer is coming close to the records and likely will set new ones once he returns.
As far as off the ice we know that Roy is a whack job and look at him.... is he all there? But Broduer is not a boy scout either. I remember him making news, that his wife left him after she found out he was BANG'N her sister.
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TimHorton
Top Prospect
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 07:29:11
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TROLLING THE INTERENT AND FOUND A FUNNY COMMENT MADE ABOUT BRODEUR WHEN HE GOT HIS 98TH SHUT OUT.
"New Jersey Devils goalie Martin Brodeur recorded his 98th Shutout in a win over the Stars. brodeur said shutouts are easy for him, becasue New Jersey and zeros go hand in hand." |
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Guest5052
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Posted - 11/10/2008 : 12:36:07
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Roy and Brodeur are both great goalies.
For me the fact that when both were in their prime (more or less in Brodeurs case) Hasek won the Vezina 6 times as judged by the league (and hart twice) over both of them tells you who the best goalie was (not which goalie had the most playoff success, which is a team effort, even if that team is "relatively mediocre" and the goalie is a massive part of that team)... remember in 86 the Habs didn't beat anyone above them in the standings except the flames in the finals , so the whole league save the oilers was probably relatively mediocre and the 93 Habs had a relatively easy run to the Cup esp when the Islanders knocked off the Pens)... This is not to say that Brodeur or Roy aren't great goalies or they didn't deserve their playoff success, but rather that Hasek was judged (and rightly so in my opinion) to be the better goalie in those 8 years (their primes). |
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Guest4086
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Posted - 11/10/2008 : 13:15:30
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Wow, a lot of hot air being blown around here on this one.
Clearly cases can be made for both goalies being great, and marking their spots in the top 5 of all time. The stats don't lie. But at the same time, the stats don't tell the whole story. The great goalies from back in the 50's and 60's (perhaps even the 70's) didn't have a full 82 game schedule each year. They also didn't have 4 rounds of 7-game playoff series each year. They probably also didn't play for as many years as the goalies do these days. Hence, less opportunity's to get as many wins/shutouts as Roy and Brodeur.
But in a straight up comparison of the two, I would have to say Roy is the better of the two. 4 Stanley Cup rings, with two different teams. Tough to beat that one. And although Brodeur does have 3 rings, I don't think anyone can convince me that he stole as many playoffs games as Roy did. Case in point: How many Cups has Brodeur won since Scott Stevens retired? ZERO! |
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No More Comparing Brodeur to Roy 
