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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2008 : 21:07:26
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Edmonton Oilers general manager Kevin Lowe tore into Brian Burke on Friday when he made an appearance on Edmonton's Team 1260 radio station. Lowe called him a moron, described the Anaheim hockey market as pathetic, and then discussed how Burke destroyed the Vancouver Canucks.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 00:17:55
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Hmmmm.... Still some repercussions from last summer...fantastic!
Both guys have done some great work for their respective teams. And at this point, Burke has done a better job. I view this from a more pedestrian point of view.
Entertaining as all hell though!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 07:22:29
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I wouldn't say that Burke has done that much better of a job than Lowe. The difference is that Burke had more to work with from the start. Brian Murray did a brilliant job of setting up that team. Burke added a few key pieces (Niedermayer, Pronger, Selanne).
However, I do believe what Lowe said about the future of Anaheim. They are chalked full of older talent. Sure, they have Perry, Getzlaf, Beachamin, and Bobby Ryan. But who's coming down the pipe?? Anahiem has an average age of 30, while the Oilers have an average age of 27.
Ask this same question in 2 year and see what the answer is. The mark of a great GM is not only current success but future success. |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 11:01:53
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Beans one other thing youve got to weight your choice on is
How many cups they have won,
when it comes down to it thats the only thing that mattters.
And Burke is beating Lowe on that,
unless you count cups as a player. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 13:29:12
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Hockster, before you make that comment, why don't you take a look at the Anaheim team that won the Cup and find out how many where there because of Burke compared to how many where there because of Murray.
Then talk. |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 13:52:54
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Beans
The whole point is he won a cup as a GM,
Lowe hasnt.
Lowe has made his fair share of good transactions
but hes made alot more bad ones then Burke.
Sometimes a key part of being a GM is knowing what not to get rid of,
and Burke new that! |
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Guest8815
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Posted - 07/05/2008 : 14:51:06
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| I'd like to see one of these bad trades Lowe has made, because from what I've seen they have all benefited the Oilers. Oh ya and Lowe is twice the GM Burke will ever be. Anyone can take an already great team to the playoffs, a real GM takes a non playoff team and makes them a competitor, kind of like Lowe. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 18:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I wouldn't say that Burke has done that much better of a job than Lowe.
I would.
Burke added a few key pieces? Yep, I would say that Neidermayer, Pronger and Selanne weren't too bad a job of pick-ups.
Anaheim is older than Edmonton, and then you show the age differential of 30-27. Not too much of a difference there.
Ask someone in 2 years if they think this?? So now you're admitting that it might be 2 more years before Lowe's work is comparable to what Burke has done...
Beans...think with your head, not your heart! Get over your animosity towards Burke and Pronger (there are obvious reasons why you do) and call a spade a spade. Burke has a great track record with both Vancouver and the Ducks. And I am a fan of neither of those teams, I am just calling it how it is.
For example, I used to love Glen Sather and what he accomplished with the Oil...until he showed us with his work in NYR that he isn't that good of a GM after all. Sucks, but the proof is in his performance. |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 19:59:03
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| ya i agree pickles. It doesnt matter what might happen its what does happen, and burke has a cup as a GM and lowe doesnt. And 8815 lowe might have made some good trades but it hasnt one them a cup and burkes moves have. One of the only reasons the ducks won is because of burkes move to aquire pronger while not giving up any key components of their team |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 21:02:15
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I am actually laughing out loud.
What did Burke do to get Pronger??? Nothing. The offer he layed out was better than what the other teams were offering. Pronger wanted to get traded. Burke wasn't looking for him, it feel into his lap.
What did Burke do to get Neidermayer?? Nothing. Neidermayer would have played for what ever team his brother was playing for. That happened to be Anaheim. That had nothing to do with Burke either.
So, in the end, the Anaheim team that won the Cup was built by Murray with Burke adding only Selanne.
And what success did Vancouver have??? Take a look at that team now! Without Nonis making the move to get Luongo, Vancouver is a horrible team. Most of that team was built by who???? Brian Burke.
I still stand by the fact that Burke aquired a stacked team before he arrived. Lowe is building a team in a market that is proving impossible to lure free agents. If the Oilers can offer Hossa $9 million and season and Jagr $8 million and they still don't come, what's a guy supposed to do?? Offer sheets, trades, and draft picks.
The proof will be in the pudding. Mark my words, in the next 3 years, the Oilers will have a better record and more success than the Ducks. |
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Guest8815
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Posted - 07/06/2008 : 00:42:08
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| Hockster do you even know what you are saying? You tell me "Lowe has made his fair share of good transactions but hes made alot more bad ones then Burke". Yet you fail to provide any of these "bad" trades Lowe has made. And yes Lowe's trades haven't won him a cup, hmm could that maybe be because he REBUILT the Oilers? As Beans already stated, Burke has done very little work to build the team that Anaheim is, where Lowe has made numerous trades, signings & drafting to build the team he has. Anaheim may be better than Edmonton, but Lowe is eons ahead of Burke. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2008 : 02:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I am actually laughing out loud.
What did Burke do to get Pronger??? Nothing. The offer he layed out was better than what the other teams were offering. Pronger wanted to get traded. Burke wasn't looking for him, it feel into his lap.
What did Burke do to get Neidermayer?? Nothing. Neidermayer would have played for what ever team his brother was playing for. That happened to be Anaheim. That had nothing to do with Burke either.
So, in the end, the Anaheim team that won the Cup was built by Murray with Burke adding only Selanne.
And what success did Vancouver have??? Take a look at that team now! Without Nonis making the move to get Luongo, Vancouver is a horrible team. Most of that team was built by who???? Brian Burke.
I still stand by the fact that Burke aquired a stacked team before he arrived. Lowe is building a team in a market that is proving impossible to lure free agents. If the Oilers can offer Hossa $9 million and season and Jagr $8 million and they still don't come, what's a guy supposed to do?? Offer sheets, trades, and draft picks.
The proof will be in the pudding. Mark my words, in the next 3 years, the Oilers will have a better record and more success than the Ducks.
Can you put things into your own words without getting all your info from that one infamous interview with Lowe?
Here's the link to that, btw: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2008/07/04/lowe_burke_moron/
This is both in text and audio form. We've all heard it several times. Entertaining as all hell !
Now....
"Did nothing to get Pronger?" Except, in Lowe's own words, " threw enough assets our way". So he traded for him. How else do you acquire a player's rights ?? 28 other GM's could have traded for him too. And this was an important piece to their successful cup run.
"Neidermayer would have played wherever his brother played??" They were never teammates before, so this was no gimme either. Scott couldn't just show up and start playing with the team unannounced. And he didn't sign a below-value contract either. GM did his job here - added another important piece of the puzzle.
"Burke only added Selanne??" .... And Pronger, and Neidermayer. And he signed Penner as an undrafted free agent (where was Lowe on that one? He could have signed him too, right?) He traded for Travis Moen who is widely regarded as a very important piece of their Stanley Cup team of '07 as a checking specialist that scored some very timely goals (including being credited with the cup-winning tally). He also added Parros and May for some much needed size and toughness on their cup-run. (Parros played 32 regular season games and 5 playoff games after being acquired from Colorado, while Brad May was picked up at the trade deadline and played in 14 reg season games, and 18 playoff games)
He also hired a coach that now has a career record of 138-74-34. Not too shabby of a call here either.
"What success has Vancouver had" here's a start for you: http://www.ishkur.com/sports/brianburke.php
Their record was 219-181-68-24 during his tenure, and they made the playoffs 4 straight years. They missed the playoffs his first 2 years there as he shook off the dust of previous management, a time where the team record was 53-76-27-8. That means the team record for his 3rd/4th/5th/6th seasons there was:166-105-41-16 - close to a .600 record (.592 to be exact) Again, pretty solid. Also keep in mind he had a hand in their cup run of '94 too. This is starting to shape up as a pretty good track record!
"take a look at the team now...Vancouver is a horrible team" First off, Burke hasn't been there for over 4 years now (since May of '04), and one of their only success stories this year, the Sedin sisters, is from Burke's work. His draft picks while with them include: Bryan Allen (371 NHL games) Artem Chubarov (228 NHL games) Jarkko Ruuttu, Sedin & Sedin, RJ Umberger, Kevin Bieksa, Jason King (marginal NHL-er so far), Ryan Kesler, Nathan MacIvar (17 games last year with Van.).
And why is it impossible to lure FA's to Edmonton?? You have to lure them to your city no matter where you are; that's your job as a GM. If you say it's difficult because of the Canadian dollar, then I will say that 5 other teams have the same hurdle. If you say it's because of unattractive weather, then I will say that many other teams have that problem too. If you say it's because of lack of a winning team, I will point out to you a recent finals appearance by the Oil not to mention the history of the club. If you say it's because of players' unwillingness to be under a microscope, I will say that again, many other markets have this issue too.
Hossa didn't sign there because he appears to be chasing a cup (or going to a team where he won't be as heavily relied on or scrutinized)
Jagr didn't sign there because it appears that he wanted to play in Russia this year no matter what.
And, yes, the proof will certainly be in the pudding... |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 11:12:25
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quote:
do you even know what you are saying? You tell me "Lowe has made his fair share of good transactions but hes made alot more bad ones then Burke". Yet you fail to provide any of these "bad" trades Lowe has made. And yes Lowe's trades haven't won him a cup, hmm could that maybe be because he REBUILT the Oilers? As Beans already stated, Burke has done very little work to build the team that Anaheim is, where Lowe has made numerous trades, signings & drafting to build the team he has. Anaheim may be better than Edmonton, but Lowe is eons ahead of Burke.
I find this hilarious. Kevin Lowe is basically telling us hes made mistakes by trading away lupul and pitktanen after their first year in edmonton, and lupul lit it up while he wasnt injured last season, and his replacements, both will not be on the oilers team, and in that deal they also lose a top stay at home d in smith and his leadership.
The deal looks like this now
Lupul 56 games 20 goals 46points +2
smith 77 games 1 goal 10 points -4 18 min/games
for
Cole 73 games 22 goals 51 points +5
lupul had nearly as many points and goals in almost 20 less games and its also a two player for one result, cole brings physicality butso does smith. Anf lupul is not imjury prone it was a freak hit by hatcher that gave him a concussion |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 12:21:24
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I'm getting a little sick of this. It's kinda pointless. It's one of those arguements where I have my opinion (which isn't going to change) and others have their opinion.
I do want to comment quickly on one points. If you read or listen to anything with substance, it has been proven over the past few seasons at least that Edmonton is not a market where FA want to come. The one off season when Pronger was traded and Spacek and Samsanov both left, since then the Oilers have done a ton to attract talent that have not wanted to come. Nylander last year, Jagr and Hossa this year. Doesn't matter, they don't want to come. It has nothing to do with money or Canadian Dollar or anything else. However, there are a few issues that are very hard.
Please appreciate that if you are not in Edmonton, you have absolutely no idea how hockey crazed this place is. Not a clue. To the point where non-Oiler NHL players who grew up in Edmonton will not spend more than a few days here in the summer because they can not get away from people wanting to talk about hockey. The players literally can not leave their homes without being bombarded. I have even heard stories of players and coaches kids having to be home schooled because the other kids at school will harrass them so badly.
None of that is Lowe's fault. And trust me when I say that it is worse than you think. Some players like it, others do not. Mostly young players without families seem to have a liking for Edmonton. Players with families don't. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 07/07/2008 12:23:54 |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 15:33:44
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i agree beans this will never be reolved, but on the other note i am from edmonton and am a flames fan, but the oilers fans are unreal.
Its kind of weird that no one wants to come here, but i think if they make some sort of playoff run that will change.
At this point in time the oilers and toronto are the only canadian team without a bonafide superstar |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 20:13:11
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...and the cry of "uncle" was heard echoing down the halls of Pick Up Hockey...  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 20:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
...and the cry of "uncle" was heard echoing down the halls of Pick Up Hockey...
Absolutely and emphatically NO!!! I just know when there is no point in wasting my time. Nothing I can say will change either yours or Hockster's mind, so why bother.
Besides, I will have a chance to say I told you so in due time my man, in due time! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 07/07/2008 20:20:31 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 20:46:04
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You are truly correct, Lowe has plenty of time to gain ground on Burke. (just razzing you, beans!)
Seriously now...Lowe has really got off to an amazing start for this season. Possible division champs, they look great...if even only on paper for now. I hope they do well this year - my partisanship includes all the Canadian teams!
I wanted to add: You can definitely change my mind on any topic so long as the facts/figures/stats/observations/claims/etc. convince me. I've been wrong before (we all have) and I've definitely changed my mind on issues when I didn't have all the right facts beforehand...or worse, when I was just going along with popular opinion. Remember when Eagleson was a highly regarded supporter of the sport and league?? I'll bet you most of the players in the Summit Series would prefer to have left him behind now that they know all the facts, right? |
Edited by - 99pickles on 07/07/2008 20:54:41 |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 23:27:48
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Today gary bettman issued statements to both managers to quit their bickering or suffer the consequences.
I say about time, its ridiculous to say that an offer sheet is the problem for the NHL today, and then to carry on for a year.
Bettman looks good for taking control
Lowe looks good for standing up for himself, as well as getting the last word
Burke comes off as a whiney cry babey |
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GM Rivalry? 
