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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2009 : 14:24:53
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Poll Question:
It is clearly obvious that Toskala's 08/09 campaign has been sub-par, however, is it his fault??
Is Vesa Toskala a good goalie on a bad team or just simply a bad goalie???
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 14:37:41
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I think Toskala is a good goaltender. He has the ability to become a really good goaltender. However he is not playing like a good goaltender. I don't know if that makes any sense but that is what I see. Last year with the leafs he showed the ability to be a standout #1 goalie in the NHL. I felt he had an excellent season with a subpar team. This year he has had a lot more poor performances but I think if reflects more the team play in front of him. On most games the leafs have failed defensively. Some games Toskala is to blame for some weak goals. Overall I think if Toskala played for team that played with more confidence in front of him then Toskala would be better as well. Look at Osgood in Detroit. He excels in Detroit but could not do the same in NYI or with the Blues. Every goaltender goes through poor performance seasons. I think that Toskala may be going through his and he may not want to be in TO anymore.
Anyways I voted good goaltender, poor team |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 14:40:46
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Here is some information to consider.
Career record - 117 wins, 70 losses, 25 ties
Record Pre Leafs - 65 wins, 28 losses, 10 ties
Record with Leafs - 52 wins, 42 losses, 15 ties
Career GAA and save % - 2.68 and .904
Pre Leafs - 2.35 and .914
With Leafs - 3.00 and .895
Win % and Games with Point % Career - .511 and .620
Pre Leafs - .565 and .652
With Leafs - .456 and .588
SAN JOSE's record during Toskala's tenure - 166-111-51 (.506 win %)
TORONTO's record during Toskala's tenure - 57-60-21 (.413 win %)
Anyone else notice that Toskala has won 10 more games than he lost on a team that has lost 3 more games than they won???
It's pretty easy to see how a good goalie's numbers will drop playing on a bad team. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/16/2009 14:41:46 |
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Guest6093
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Posted - 02/16/2009 : 14:59:34
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| Beans this dissapoints me i thought tou like me didn't give crap about the leafs :( |
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Guest0538
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Posted - 02/16/2009 : 15:19:58
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yea this is all true his stats and all. plus he was behind the sharks and they are a very defencive team. i watch the leafs often and toskala pays more attention to following the players and not the puck. he has very bad positioning skills he still has alot to learn in my eyes
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 15:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6093
Beans this dissapoints me i thought tou like me didn't give crap about the leafs :(
I care about all hockey teams. And this really isn't me. I only get one vote. I just got the ball rolling. Maybe the masses will be able to convince the minority.
But I'm not holding my breath. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 16:11:13
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| Toskala is a horrible goalie he sucks... anyone can look good in net for San Jose... Toskala is the worst goalie I've seen in a Maple Leaf Jersey even worse than Raycroft |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 16:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Toskala is a horrible goalie he sucks... anyone can look good in net for San Jose... Toskala is the worst goalie I've seen in a Maple Leaf Jersey even worse than Raycroft
Although this was an excellent and incredibly insightful post. Would you care to explain to us why you think he sucks. |
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 17:10:49
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I voted good goalie, bad team. He's having an off-year, but I don't forsee a complete meltdown. If the team-D was better, he would look a lot better.
Hindsight is 20/20 but the Leafs probably would have been happier sticking with the first-rounder than having Toskala now, but as it stands he is still an asset and giving up on him would be pointless. Shopping for a better goalie would be a waste knowing the team is not going to compete for another 2 years... unless that goalie is young or a prospect.
Pogge could still be a legit NHLer, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in his basket. Better overall egg distribution is what the Leafs need lol. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 17:23:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Toskala is a horrible goalie he sucks... anyone can look good in net for San Jose... Toskala is the worst goalie I've seen in a Maple Leaf Jersey even worse than Raycroft
Although this was an excellent and incredibly insightful post. Would you care to explain to us why you think he sucks.
I'll explain Toronto is a decent team, there are playing excellent hockey for a team that is in rebuilding stages... Toronto is a good young hockey team that knows how to put the puck in the net unfortunately Toronto has had a lot of good defensemen that have suffered injuries this year like Luke Schenn, Mike Van Ryn and Tomas Kaberle either than that while they are all playing Toronto has a good defensive team and an even better offensive team.. It doesn't seem to matter how many goals Toronto scores as long as Toskala is in net they will never make the play offs. Toskala is tearing Toronto apart.. He seems to be blind he never seems to see the puck, he's way out of position... I think him and Price would make a great couple because if things aren't going there way they seem to give up every easy.. Toskala couldn't see or stop a 6 foot beach ball if it was right in front of him traveling 4 kilometers a minute... If Toronto wants to win some games they need to say bye bye Toskala don't come back because he is pathetic. Joseph is so much better even at the age of 41 I think they should just play him for the remainder of the season it would get Toronto better results maybe possibly even squeeze them into a playoff spot by the end of the season.. Like I said many time Toskala was backup for Nabokov in San Jose. Any goalie can look good playing for San Jose... living proof look at the sieve Vesa Toskala stats with San Jose, they actually made him look good, he comes to Toronto and he is nothing but a bum who couldn't stop the puck if someone gave it to him.. Look at Brian Boucher's career stats he was horrible for Philadelphia, Pheonix, Calgary, Chicago and Columbus.. but his stats for San Jose are amazing.... Never say a goalie that looks good for a team like San Jose, Detroit or New Jersey is a good goalie because it is the team that is making him look good.. To find out if a goalie is good they need to play for a crap team like Columbus or Tampa Bay. Look at Mason he is taking Columbus places same with Mike Smith before he got hurt he was the only think keeping Tampa Bay in a game great save %... Toskala just doesn't cut it as a number 1 goalie. Any decent team (not great team) that signs him is down sizing there team every game he plays |
Edited by - hanley6 on 02/16/2009 17:28:52 |
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 17:37:43
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I definitely agree that the injury bug has contributed to Toronto's defensive woes, but even 100% healthy they're FAR from being playoff-ready.
btw, didn't Brian Boucher take the Flyers to the Conference finals? Then set the NHL record for shutouts with the Coyotes? I'm not saying he's an all-star, but man is legit. |
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DangleFest89
Rookie
122 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 17:48:17
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| who is Toronto's shut down defencemen? Schenn enough said not chirping him just saying maybe instead of having all these quick transition offensive defence they should get some more stay at home guys ever look how many turnovers and giveaways they have a game I wish i could look up stats for that but i bet it wouldn't be good. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 08:40:56
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Hanley, couple of questions:
1) How is it possible that Toronto would improve their performance playing their other goalies?? Pogge and Joseph are a combined 2-8-1 in 15 starts. 4 of those 15 games they were pulled!! Their GAA and save % is worst than Toskala's. How is that an improvement???
2) Are you saying that goalies that have played for Detroit, San Jose, and New Jersey are not great because they have good teams in front of them??? Well, I would think that pretty much every NHL fan would disagree that Brodeur and Nabokov are not elite, top 5 in the league goalies. You have also sang the praises of Conklin in the past, and he plays for Detroit. Does that make him a weak goalie??
3) You keep on bringing up Mason and that Columbus is such a bad team. That team is better than the Leafs from top to bottom. NO contest. Mason is a good goalie playing on a average team. The Leafs are not even average.
4) If Nabokov is a consensus elite goalie (to most fans other than yourself) can you explain how Toskala had 1 more win and 6 less losses than Nabokov playing in 12 less games the last year Toskala played in SJ?? Their GAA and save % were virtually identical. How can a bad goalie do that???
5) Finally, what are you talking about the Leafs are playing excellent hockey for a team that is rebuilding?? Who is rebuilding??? A team that is rebuilding will drop their players for draft picks and ice the youngest team they can to gain experience. The Leafs do not do either of those things. Every trade they have made is player for player and many of the young Leaf prospects are still playing for the Marlies!!! And don't even try to say the Leafs are playing excellent. 4th worst in the league is not excellent. To see a good, young, rebuilding team that is playing above their expectations, take a look at LA.
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Guest0534
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Posted - 02/17/2009 : 08:49:45
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they should just play him for the remainder of the season it would get Toronto better results maybe possibly even squeeze them into a playoff spot .
why would the leafs want a playoff spot right now? they're rebuilding i think they would rather take a good draft pic and end last if they wanna compete in the next two years |
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Guest0534
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Posted - 02/17/2009 : 08:51:12
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are some of you really this dumb you havn't realized what they're goal is this year and were almost coming up on the end of the season
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 17:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0534
they should just play him for the remainder of the season it would get Toronto better results maybe possibly even squeeze them into a playoff spot .
why would the leafs want a playoff spot right now? they're rebuilding i think they would rather take a good draft pic and end last if they wanna compete in the next two years
that's all fine and dandy, even if they get Tavares in the draft, sure Tavares looks great in Junior hockey but who knows he may be another Daigle in the NHL... Burke and Wilson don't want to settle with getting a good draft pick, they want Toronto to win... True Leafs fans want Toronto to win... You can still be a rebuilding team if you make the playoffs. It's simple if you make the playoffs more better players will want to sign with you in the off season |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 17:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hanley, couple of questions:
1) How is it possible that Toronto would improve their performance playing their other goalies?? Pogge and Joseph are a combined 2-8-1 in 15 starts. 4 of those 15 games they were pulled!! Their GAA and save % is worst than Toskala's. How is that an improvement???
2) Are you saying that goalies that have played for Detroit, San Jose, and New Jersey are not great because they have good teams in front of them??? Well, I would think that pretty much every NHL fan would disagree that Brodeur and Nabokov are not elite, top 5 in the league goalies. You have also sang the praises of Conklin in the past, and he plays for Detroit. Does that make him a weak goalie??
3) You keep on bringing up Mason and that Columbus is such a bad team. That team is better than the Leafs from top to bottom. NO contest. Mason is a good goalie playing on a average team. The Leafs are not even average.
4) If Nabokov is a consensus elite goalie (to most fans other than yourself) can you explain how Toskala had 1 more win and 6 less losses than Nabokov playing in 12 less games the last year Toskala played in SJ?? Their GAA and save % were virtually identical. How can a bad goalie do that???
5) Finally, what are you talking about the Leafs are playing excellent hockey for a team that is rebuilding?? Who is rebuilding??? A team that is rebuilding will drop their players for draft picks and ice the youngest team they can to gain experience. The Leafs do not do either of those things. Every trade they have made is player for player and many of the young Leaf prospects are still playing for the Marlies!!! And don't even try to say the Leafs are playing excellent. 4th worst in the league is not excellent. To see a good, young, rebuilding team that is playing above their expectations, take a look at LA.
1. Maybe so.. But Joseph plays smarter hockey, he makes more key saves, doesn't allow so many easy goals... Pogge isn't NHL ready plain and simple he's not even proving himself in the minors so I don't think if he ever makes the NHL he'll be any better than a backup. And Toskala is blind, he allows way too many easy goals. Toronto would be better off without him.
2. Brodeur and Nabokov are great goalies no doubt about it.. Although it does help them with the teams they play for... I was referring more towards Detroit makes OsGood look good, even knowing he's way overrated because of Detroits success. Conklin has skill but he looks great because of the Team he plays for. Scott Clemmensen this is his break out season for sure because Brodeur in injured.. New Jersey's skill and great Defense is helping him out huge... Boucher Sanjose is turning him from a losing career statistic goalie to a winning goalie again with San Jose they made Toskala look like a good goalie even knowing he is nothing special at all.
3. Toronto is a much better offensive team than Columbus hands down besides Rick Nash Toronto's offense is way stronger you can't argue that.. Columbus Defense is nothing special if Toronto had all of there top defensemen they'd be better.. The Only thing that makes Columbus look so good is Mason and Nash. Columbus is a below average team with a GREAT goalie pulling there weight... Toronto is an average team with the worst goaltending in the NHL (Toskala) making Toronto in the Standings look like a below average team..
4. Like I said any goalie can look good playing for San Jose.. Nabokov may have had 1 less win than Toskala but he played better he had a better GAA and Save %. Nabokov also had 7 shut outs that year something Toskala will never do.
5. Do you even know what you are talking about? Toronto is a rebuilding team and they are playing excellent for a rebuilding team... Toronto is playing the most rookies than any other team in the NHL.. 4th to the bottom of the League yeah you can thank Toskala for that he has lost so many games for the Leafs its not funny especially when they were ahead by 3 or 4 heading in the 3rd period then allows a bunch of weak goals that a baby could have stopped and then they lose in a shootout which happens way too often... Toronto is a lot better team than what Toskala makes them look.. whether you like it or not, it's true... LA is another great example of a s***ty team with Great goaltending in Jonathan Quick. |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 02/17/2009 : 18:16:26
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| hanley at what point has joseph shown he is a better option than toskala? he has a wosre goals against average and a worse save percentage, at that rate if he played more game the leafs would allow more goals against. Is it so hard for you to see that the team infront of toskala is worse than he is. he hasnt played great by any means but the pressure of playing behind a terrible team can wear you down and he has been doing that for 2 years now. and are you not the one who once said pogge is better than price? now you say he is not good enough to be a starter........... make up your freakin mind. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 19:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
hanley at what point has joseph shown he is a better option than toskala? he has a wosre goals against average and a worse save percentage, at that rate if he played more game the leafs would allow more goals against. Is it so hard for you to see that the team infront of toskala is worse than he is. he hasnt played great by any means but the pressure of playing behind a terrible team can wear you down and he has been doing that for 2 years now. and are you not the one who once said pogge is better than price? now you say he is not good enough to be a starter........... make up your freakin mind.
Prove to me that i've said Pogge is better than Price... I have no idea where you got that from because I've never said that. I said Mason is better than Price there is a huge difference there... I've said from the start that Pogge is not NHL ready. Joseph is the better choice for Toronto because he is a solid, smart goalie, he's faster than Toskala and Joseph doesn't allow weak goals like Toskala does on a regular basis. When healthy Toronto is a lot better team than most people seem to think.. I mean they have no problems against teams like Detroit, Pittsburgh, New Jersey. So I wouldn't say Toskala has the pressure of being in front of a terrible team, here is an interesting fact including tonights game out of Toronto's 57 games played they have only been out shot by opposing teams 19 times.. So if you think about it Toronto played better hockey in most games, as Toronto dominates in shots most of the time... Toronto's goaltending is the problem (Toskala) |
Edited by - hanley6 on 02/17/2009 19:30:09 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 07:16:53
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I remember when Ed Belfour first came to Toronto . . . they said he was washed up, he played a few weeks worth of bad games. He was almost run out of town, but then he started playing amazing - and I mean, off his head show-stopping stuff. Then the tide turned, and he was considered a pretty good goalie, although many Leafs fans still disparaged him.
Toskala may not ever play up to Belfour's top level, but he is a solid goalie, nonetheless. He probably hasn't played up to his top potential this year, for sure - but he has done an adequate job, in my opinion.
I'd love for him to do even better, but then again . . . I sort of like the idea of a Tavares or Hedman in Toronto blue and white 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 07:41:10
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Well, it's obvious that Hanley is one of those "non-objective" Leafs fans.
I'll let the voting do the talking. Good Goalie being voted 4 to 1 compared to bad goalie.
I guess the majority is wrong and the minority is right???
I'm done, have fun. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well, it's obvious that Hanley is one of those "non-objective" Leafs fans.
I'll let the voting do the talking. Good Goalie being voted 4 to 1 compared to bad goalie.
I guess the majority is wrong and the minority is right???
I'm done, have fun.
thats funny how things work here... On a lot of other hockey sites most people vote against Toskala saying he's a nobody, a sieve, he sucks. I know I'm not the only person that thinks he's way over rated, he's definitely not under rated.. I know a lot of people agree with me that he is the one that is hurting the Leafs |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 19:39:29
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thats because people on the other hockey sites are idiots. if not they would be here at pick-up hockey. the best forums around.
to blame toskala is rediculous. no goalie that has played for the leafs this year has played well not toskala not joseph and not pogge. but hey toskala has the best numbers across the board over both of them. its just easy for u to blame him because he plays the most games. if joseph played all those games you would be in here saying he is to old to be playing. you'll always use your scapegoat rather than admitting that your team sucks
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 08:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
thats funny how things work here... On a lot of other hockey sites most people vote against Toskala saying he's a nobody, a sieve, he sucks. I know I'm not the only person that thinks he's way over rated, he's definitely not under rated.. I know a lot of people agree with me that he is the one that is hurting the Leafs
Be very careful guys....I'm starting to think that those 'a lot of people agree with me', that he keeps referring to, might be more along the lines of voices in his head...
Hanley, buddy, really now....come on...the Leafs woes have to do with so much more than just Toskala, why is that so hard to recognize? You yourself have been praising the pairing of Moore and Blake, doesn't that in itself speak volumes? If this is the high spot for the team, then they are indeed in trouble.
PS. I'm not sure if www.ilovetheleafs.com or www.leaflovers.com are objective sites to gather opinions from...  |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 13:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
thats because people on the other hockey sites are idiots. if not they would be here at pick-up hockey. the best forums around.
to blame toskala is rediculous. no goalie that has played for the leafs this year has played well not toskala not joseph and not pogge. but hey toskala has the best numbers across the board over both of them. its just easy for u to blame him because he plays the most games. if joseph played all those games you would be in here saying he is to old to be playing. you'll always use your scapegoat rather than admitting that your team sucks
I doubt it very much... If Joseph played most of the games he'd have a better goals against average and save % and Toronto would have more wins, probably a decent playoff spot... Joseph has looked Sharp this year compared to Toskala, another thing when you sit out of games for a long time you are not going to be game ready. Under those circumstances Joseph has played well. Toskala hasn't |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 02/19/2009 : 14:00:42
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if by play playing well you mean he has worse numbers then toskala across the board then you are right, but there is probally a reason that toskala gets the starts, and that reason is ......... joseph has not given them any reason to show that he is a better option then toskala.
and a decent playoff spot? are you serious ? the leafs are 21 - 36 how good do u think joseph is in your fantasy world? its one thing to have an opinion every one has one. but come on you have to pull your head out of your ass and take the blue n white glasses off, then you will be able to see the world like the rest of us |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 14:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
thats funny how things work here... On a lot of other hockey sites most people vote against Toskala saying he's a nobody, a sieve, he sucks. I know I'm not the only person that thinks he's way over rated, he's definitely not under rated.. I know a lot of people agree with me that he is the one that is hurting the Leafs
Be very careful guys....I'm starting to think that those 'a lot of people agree with me', that he keeps referring to, might be more along the lines of voices in his head...
Hanley, buddy, really now....come on...the Leafs woes have to do with so much more than just Toskala, why is that so hard to recognize? You yourself have been praising the pairing of Moore and Blake, doesn't that in itself speak volumes? If this is the high spot for the team, then they are indeed in trouble.
PS. I'm not sure if www.ilovetheleafs.com or www.leaflovers.com are objective sites to gather opinions from...
I'd love to post these sites so everyone can see but one of the moderators would delete them |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 14:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
if by play playing well you mean he has worse numbers then toskala across the board then you are right, but there is probally a reason that toskala gets the starts, and that reason is ......... joseph has not given them any reason to show that he is a better option then toskala.
and a decent playoff spot? are you serious ? the leafs are 21 - 36 how good do u think joseph is in your fantasy world? its one thing to have an opinion every one has one. but come on you have to pull your head out of your ass and take the blue n white glasses off, then you will be able to see the world like the rest of us
Toronto has a decent team... Joseph doesn't let in weak goals like Toskala does. It's plain and simple. The reason why they play Toskala more is because they made the mistake of signing the guy for 4 million a year, they only signed Joseph for less then 1 million for 1 year, So financially they'd be ripping themselves off by playing the better goalie (Joseph) more than the weakest goalie in the NHL (Toskala). Although they'd be better off playing Joseph finacially they can't unless Toskala get injured... sitting 4 million dollars on a bench game after game after game is bad business. Toronto knows that signing Toskala was not worth it. They would like to get rid of him... If i was Burke, If they can't catch a deal for Toskala at trade deadline, I'd buy off Toskala's contract and sign something better |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 14:51:58
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You can use my name rather than "one of the moderators," I am a big boy and I can take it. Besides, these kinds of links support an arguement and are hockey related. (Not only that, but they are not really web sites, I think my partner as the biggest Oiler fans on the site was being sarcastic. The point is that a site that is all Leaf based is a little bit bias.)
And to your point about "smart business" I truly think you are grasping here. Regardless of the value of the player, each team plays the best talent they have. What they get paid is irrelevant and it's is actually bad business to play someone who is not performing with a high salary over playing a lower paid player who is performing. Winning = More Profit. Losing = Less Profit. These equations hold true in every hockey market with the exception of Toronto, Montreal, and NY. They make money regardless of winning.
And a perfect arguement to your "having to play players with a higher salary" is Kovalev. He get's paid more that Toskala and was asked to stay home on a road trip.
The "plain and simple" (as you said) is that Toskala is not only the best goalie Toronto has, but a legitimate #1 goalie in the league. It seems that 80% of the people can see that.
And even if you don't agree with that, how can you say that Toskala is the only problem on that team?? Seriously, sit Toskala the rest of the season and Toronto will finish at best the same pace they are on today. They definately do not improve. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/19/2009 18:26:18 |
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 15:07:16
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bahahaha! If Cujo was a horse he would be glue by now.
Toronto does NOT have a decent team, you can't blame it all on Toskala. Why don't we hypthesize for a moment. We will say for the sake of arguement Cujo is twice as good as Toskala. Where would the Leafs be had they played him the majority of games? 10th in the East? 9th? Best case scenario, a one-and-done playoff series against the B's or the Caps. What's the point? Toronto is rebuilding right now, their priority is NOT this season, and it shouldn't be. The way I look at it, the more losses the better, as long as they don't come against the Habs :)
I do not believe Toskala will be they're goalie going forward, but for now, it would be a waste of money to get rid of him. |
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Bozonator
Top Prospect
57 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:19:22
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Take Martin Gerber for instance. He is a goalie being paid 3.7 Million and where is he... oh ya the minors.
Toskala is not the problem, nor the cure. Cujo is not the savior. Pogge... well self- explanatory. The game is a team sport, you win and lose as a team. Sometimes it is some players fault, but not 60 games of the season. Toskala will find a home somewhere and will be a decent/good goalie, and will have better numbers than he has had with the Leafs. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 04:24:35
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I am proud to see pick-up hockey has defined itself apart from other hockey sites in saying that Toskala is a bonified #1 goalie, and that he is definitely not the main reason for the Leafs' bad (see: rebuilding) season.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hanley!
Here's a challenge, Hanley: Give me the stats barrier that Toskala would need to cross for you to consider that you were dead wrong about Toskala, and that he is indeed a good goalie and a solid #1. Give me the GAA, wins and shutouts he would need for you to consider writing an apology letter to all the members here, please!
Then, wait a full season, so that after next year, if Toskala survives in Toronto, we can see how he does - on a team that may be improved slightly from a lottery pick team to fighting for 8-10th place.
You up to the "Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is" challenge, Hanley?!? Haha, I doubt it . . . but I'd love to see it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 15:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I am proud to see pick-up hockey has defined itself apart from other hockey sites in saying that Toskala is a bonified #1 goalie, and that he is definitely not the main reason for the Leafs' bad (see: rebuilding) season.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hanley!
Here's a challenge, Hanley: Give me the stats barrier that Toskala would need to cross for you to consider that you were dead wrong about Toskala, and that he is indeed a good goalie and a solid #1. Give me the GAA, wins and shutouts he would need for you to consider writing an apology letter to all the members here, please!
Then, wait a full season, so that after next year, if Toskala survives in Toronto, we can see how he does - on a team that may be improved slightly from a lottery pick team to fighting for 8-10th place.
You up to the "Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is" challenge, Hanley?!? Haha, I doubt it . . . but I'd love to see it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
lmao that's not going to happen, I stand by my word the truth, Toskala is no better than a backup for any team |
Edited by - hanley6 on 02/20/2009 15:21:41 |
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Chriso88
Top Prospect
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 11:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
if by play playing well you mean he has worse numbers then toskala across the board then you are right, but there is probally a reason that toskala gets the starts, and that reason is ......... joseph has not given them any reason to show that he is a better option then toskala.
and a decent playoff spot? are you serious ? the leafs are 21 - 36 how good do u think joseph is in your fantasy world? its one thing to have an opinion every one has one. but come on you have to pull your head out of your ass and take the blue n white glasses off, then you will be able to see the world like the rest of us
Toronto has a decent team... Joseph doesn't let in weak goals like Toskala does. It's plain and simple. The reason why they play Toskala more is because they made the mistake of signing the guy for 4 million a year, they only signed Joseph for less then 1 million for 1 year, So financially they'd be ripping themselves off by playing the better goalie (Joseph) more than the weakest goalie in the NHL (Toskala). Although they'd be better off playing Joseph finacially they can't unless Toskala get injured... sitting 4 million dollars on a bench game after game after game is bad business. Toronto knows that signing Toskala was not worth it. They would like to get rid of him... If i was Burke, If they can't catch a deal for Toskala at trade deadline, I'd buy off Toskala's contract and sign something better
So...
Vesa Toskala GP 50 G.A.A 3.31 SVPCT 0.886
Curtis Joseph GP 12 G.A.A 3.81 SVPCT 0.854
Heres some stats to show how Joseph is worse and lets in quite a few more goals per game than Mr. Toskala.
Lets see your stats and evidence Hanley. Or do we have to continue listening to your non-sense and jabbering?
In the playoffs, will beats skill. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 15:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I am proud to see pick-up hockey has defined itself apart from other hockey sites in saying that Toskala is a bonified #1 goalie, and that he is definitely not the main reason for the Leafs' bad (see: rebuilding) season.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hanley!
Here's a challenge, Hanley: Give me the stats barrier that Toskala would need to cross for you to consider that you were dead wrong about Toskala, and that he is indeed a good goalie and a solid #1. Give me the GAA, wins and shutouts he would need for you to consider writing an apology letter to all the members here, please!
Then, wait a full season, so that after next year, if Toskala survives in Toronto, we can see how he does - on a team that may be improved slightly from a lottery pick team to fighting for 8-10th place.
You up to the "Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is" challenge, Hanley?!? Haha, I doubt it . . . but I'd love to see it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
lmao that's not going to happen, I stand by my word the truth, Toskala is no better than a backup for any team
This does not go for only Hanley, so don't take this personally. It goes for everyone, including myself.
My old Grampa always used to say, "Opinions are like Buttholes. Everyone has one and they all stink."
I don't think there has ever been a statement more true. Unfortunately, someone's "word" or opinion means nothing until they can back it up with some facts.
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Guest4985
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Posted - 02/25/2009 : 08:19:24
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I can't believe so many of you are defending a guy with a 3.31 GAA and an .886 save % (to use your stats). I also sense that many of you aren't Leaf fans so I have to ask the question: Stats aside, have any of you actually seen Toskala play? The guy simply has lost all confidence. He barely tries. He has no lateral movement and doesn't even try to make the kind of saves that Tim Thomas and Nick Backstrom do night after night. And it doesn't matter who's in front of you if you can't move laterally as a goalie---you're dead in the water. Add to that poor rebound control and you have a bad combination. The Leafs are a largely talentless bunch, no doubt about it, but they've played hard and I give them kudos for that. And Burkie had better not swing some short term deal at the trade deadline that takes them out of the bottom 5 (I don't think he's that dumb). This year is gone. We need that top draft choice. I agree Tavares might not be a superstar in the NHL (they'll figure out that Darcy Tucker garbage goal trick PDQ) but then again.......
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 08:45:30
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To answer this last guest, yes, most if not all of use have watched the Leafs play. At least had the opportunity. The Leafs are on national TV like twice a week all season, so all of Canada gets to watch around 30 Leaf games a year (at least).And yes, I have personally watched Toskala play a lot. Both when he was in San Jose and with Toronto. I have been a fan of Toskala's since he cracked into the league.
Now, you have made some comments that are absurd to me. Firstly, Tim Tomas is an excellent statistical goalie, but you are missing that he is one of the worst positional goalies in the league. There is a reason he has to make highlight saves and it's mostly because he is often out of position.
And let's talk about positional goalies for a second. There are a few of them out there. Kipper is possibly the best, Lunqvist comes to mind, as well as Toskala. Serious, take the Rose colored glasses off and tell me how often he is not square to the puck. You will see that it is very rare. The problem with playing this way is that a solid positional goalie will often have weaker rebound control and inhibit their ability to play one-timers. This holds true with the three goalies I listed above. The problem is that Toskala does not have the defense that Kipper or Lundqvist have to take care of rebound and one-time goals.
Believe me or not, do me one favor. Next time you watch a Leafs game count this:
1) How many times that Toskala's shoulders are square to the puck.
2) How many goals against Toskala comes from rebounds and one timers.
3) How many of those goals against Toskala have a Leaf defensemen in the picture not covering anyone on the other team.
You will be completely shocked if you do this objectively. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 09:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4985
I can't believe so many of you are defending a guy with a 3.31 GAA and an .886 save % (to use your stats). I also sense that many of you aren't Leaf fans so I have to ask the question: Stats aside, have any of you actually seen Toskala play? The guy simply has lost all confidence. He barely tries. He has no lateral movement and doesn't even try to make the kind of saves that Tim Thomas and Nick Backstrom do night after night. And it doesn't matter who's in front of you if you can't move laterally as a goalie---you're dead in the water. Add to that poor rebound control and you have a bad combination. The Leafs are a largely talentless bunch, no doubt about it, but they've played hard and I give them kudos for that. And Burkie had better not swing some short term deal at the trade deadline that takes them out of the bottom 5 (I don't think he's that dumb). This year is gone. We need that top draft choice. I agree Tavares might not be a superstar in the NHL (they'll figure out that Darcy Tucker garbage goal trick PDQ) but then again.......
KABOOM! You hit it right on. He HAS lost confidence. Do you think if he had some help, he might still have some of his confidence? As someone previously asked: Who is their stay at home? Nobody!
It IS a team game period. Blaming the goalie for everything, unless his name is Gerber, is beyond ridiculous. If Toskala has confidence in his help, he plays better. If he has no confidence in his help, he starts to do things that perhaps he shouldn't, because because he is playing defence as well. A little bit of the chicken and egg thing, don't you think? |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 16:07:45
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| Toskala is a very good goalie and Toronto could be doing worse without him. He just has a major inconsistency problem. See, in San Jose inconsistency can be covered up when you have got elite players in front of you, but when your in Toronto and you don't play your A game, game in and game out then its really gonna show. Sometimes I think Toskala is one of the better goalies in the NHL but other times he makes me wonder. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 19:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To answer this last guest, yes, most if not all of use have watched the Leafs play. At least had the opportunity. The Leafs are on national TV like twice a week all season, so all of Canada gets to watch around 30 Leaf games a year (at least).And yes, I have personally watched Toskala play a lot. Both when he was in San Jose and with Toronto. I have been a fan of Toskala's since he cracked into the league.
Now, you have made some comments that are absurd to me. Firstly, Tim Tomas is an excellent statistical goalie, but you are missing that he is one of the worst positional goalies in the league. There is a reason he has to make highlight saves and it's mostly because he is often out of position.
And let's talk about positional goalies for a second. There are a few of them out there. Kipper is possibly the best, Lunqvist comes to mind, as well as Toskala. Serious, take the Rose colored glasses off and tell me how often he is not square to the puck. You will see that it is very rare. The problem with playing this way is that a solid positional goalie will often have weaker rebound control and inhibit their ability to play one-timers. This holds true with the three goalies I listed above. The problem is that Toskala does not have the defense that Kipper or Lundqvist have to take care of rebound and one-time goals.
Believe me or not, do me one favor. Next time you watch a Leafs game count this:
1) How many times that Toskala's shoulders are square to the puck.
2) How many goals against Toskala comes from rebounds and one timers.
3) How many of those goals against Toskala have a Leaf defensemen in the picture not covering anyone on the other team.
You will be completely shocked if you do this objectively.
Tim Thomas is a great goalie I'd love to see him as a Leaf... Toskala is THE WORST positional goalie in the league and he cant back it up, Tim Thomas on the other hand can.. When is Toskala ever square to the puck? He's always down before the shooter makes a move which causes a lot of easy open net goals... Toronto is a good hockey team with lowsy goaltending, Toronto in 90 percent of the games out plays the opposing teams.. Toskala's confidence should he high because Toronto is a good team, but the problem is Toskala sucks plain and simple.... Cujo played a great game tonight against Ottawa, its good to see a goalie that knows what he's doing, Toronto has been lacking in that area since they got rid of Belfour....
oh yeah Toskala is awesome hahahaha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvW4j9ZISfY&NR=1 great positioning definitely one of the best positional goalies in the league
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 00:28:59
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Ok, really, you can get a video of almost every goalie booting a puck. I'm reminded of the great Marty Brodeur a few years back dropping his stick only to beautifully deflect the puck between his legs and into the net....and the puck was just sliding at him not knuckling at him like Toskala's.
Should he have stopped it? Yes.
Does it make him a terrible goalie? No.
The last few games he's played, he has been just fine positionally. Look at the Vancouver game last week. Two goals, one shot off a defender, the other on a sweet (or lucky?) tip by Alex Burrows. Nothing he could have done more. Pretty good week for "the worst goalie to wear the Blue and White." (Paraphrasing - please do not get in an uproar about that) |
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Topic |
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Vesa Toskala Guilty? 
Topic Locked
