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Guest7125
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 Posted - 05/12/2009 : 05:00:20
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Here's where you missed my point, actually.
It's great that they want to be part of the decision process.
My point is that moving the team to Ontario should be their decision. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 07:27:01
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| When I say "it should be their decision", I mean that moving the team to Canada should be the course of action they decide to take if they are interested in being fiscally responsible (like a well-run business should be). |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 10:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It is not me glossing over anything. In fact, people keep bring up the 'world of business' thing, yet when there is a rebuttel, then here comes "The NHL is different" piece. Really, people are continously contricting themselves.
So let's compare Apples to Apples than. Name me one pro sports league anywhere in the world that allows owners to sell teams and move them without league support???
Good luck finding one.
Al Davis, Raiders, NFL.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 10:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It is not me glossing over anything. In fact, people keep bring up the 'world of business' thing, yet when there is a rebuttel, then here comes "The NHL is different" piece. Really, people are continously contricting themselves.
So let's compare Apples to Apples than. Name me one pro sports league anywhere in the world that allows owners to sell teams and move them without league support???
Good luck finding one.
Al Davis, Raiders, NFL.
Brrraaaap!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 10:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Still missing my point. People continue to go back to Phoenix being a weak market and that is not my point. Not even a little bit. Sure, I am not as big an advocate as other are on another team in the GTA, but that's irrelevant.
People don't seem to get it through their head that the issue at hand is not where the team should be. It's the fact that Balsillie is trying to take the NHL out of the decision making process. That is the piece that is dead wrong.
And on another note, isn't there a little bit of a question where there is another group, how are interested in moving Atlanta to Hamilton(through the proper NHL channels) but the city of Hamilton is saying they will only work with Balsillie??? I don't get it. If the issue is having a team in the GTA, wouldn't the city work with anyone willing to fund and support a team??
Beans, what you don't seem to be getting through your head is that the viability of the Coyotes IS the base of this arguement. If they are viable, this discussion doesn't happen. Period. You can't have one without the other. And actually, as far as that other group goes, the mayor of Hamilton actually is, or did sit down with them.
Why is Bettman forcing losses on the league in a market that has NEVER proven itself and is currently deafeningly silent about the prospect of the team moving. With Quebec and Winnipeg there were massive drives of support and yet they were still allowed to move but with Phoenix, nary a peep, but Bettman gets his shorts in a knot because his dream is failing. There is no history there! Thats why your arguement that anybody can come in and move a team doesn't fly. Besides, his mandate is to ensure the stability of the league as a whole, throwing good money after bad, year after year, does nothing of the sort. In for a penny, in for a pound?
Slozo, not to toot my horn, but it was me that brought up the Leafs blocking other teams. It seemes to me that nobody was looking at that side of it. They have their grubby little hands all over this. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 13:51:06
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quote:
Beans, what you don't seem to be getting through your head is that the viability of the Coyotes IS the base of this arguement. If they are viable, this discussion doesn't happen. Period.
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
If nobody is arguing the fact that Phoenix is a market that can't support the team, then it follows logically that it should be moved. If the team is going to be sold anyway, and the league is in agreement that it should be moved, why is there suddenly an issue with selling the team to someone with the intent to move it?
The way I see it, this is not Mr Blackberry attempting to make decisions on behalf of the league - this is Mr Blackberry providing an offer that facilitates a decision the league should have already made. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 14:16:33
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Well, you can say all you want that the base of the arguement is the viability of the team in Phoenix. I will always disagree. The base of this arguement is who's decision is it to move a team. That is the root of my arguement. I am not arguing the viability of Phoenix.
To put this to bed, I 100% AGREE THAT A TEAM IN HAMILTON WOULD BE MORE ECONOMICALLY PRODUCTIVE THAN A TEAM IN PHOENIX.
There, now that we got that out of the way. Who's decision is it to move a team??? Not the single owner selling, not the new owner buys, not the fans or even the Commish. It's the Board of Governors.
Oh, by the way, Al Davis lost his lawsuit against the NFL in July of 2007. Technically, the league can throw him out of the NFL when ever they want and there is nothing he can do about it as it was decided upon by the Supreme court. I expected that, and ultimately Davis lost. The fact that NFL keeps him around does not change the fact that it was not his decision to move the team in the first place. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 14:42:19
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quote:
Who's decision is it to move a team??? Not the single owner selling, not the new owner buys, not the fans or even the Commish. It's the Board of Governors.
We've established that it's their decision.
Does it make a lot of sense to keep the team in a losing market because they're too proud to admit that a potential owner has some vision and foresight? If they can't justify -not- moving the team to Southern Ontario, why are they opposing the decision?
If the board of governors have a good reason to oppose Balsillie's bid to purchase and relocate (other than the "it's our decision" argument), they should come out with it. If they don't, they should clam up and let him move the team. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 14:54:49
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Further to my last post I guess the question I have to ask is:
If it's their decision, why haven't they made the decision to move yet?
Bear in mind we've already established that very few teams fall into the same 'failure' category that Phoenix does, and citing this move as a precedent would not likely result in similar cowboys making chaotic team movements at their own discretion - especially if the board of governors is the one who makes the decision to move the team. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 17:49:30
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OK, a couple quick points because I am growing very bored of this arguement.
1) The way that Moyes and Balsillie are going about this is making it NOT the decision of the NHL Board. Balsillie's deal is conditional on moving the team to Southern Ontario. If the courts decide to accept the offer, the NHL has limited options if any. That is taking 100% of the power away from the people who deserve it and that is not right in the NHL or any other business. If the deal is agreed to (from what I understand) they will be forced to either accept the team or consider it not part of the NHL (which I believe they have the power to do). Neither is a good thing for the league in the long run.
3) If it's all about a team in Hamilton and not about Balsillie and his "arrangements," then why is the City of Hamilton not interested in working with anyone but Balsillie?? That group that is interested in moving Atlanta to Hamilton(through the proper channels I might add) have been publicly denied by the City of Hamilton because Balsillie is not involved. That makes it not about a team in Southern Ontario, that makes it about Balsillie's team. As I said before, no one man is bigger than the league.
3) Phoenix, in 2006 averaging 15,500 fans per home game. That was higher 8 other teams in the league, including Anaheim, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, and Washington. Is it that hard for people to comprehend that the economy in the States has hit Phoenix as hard as anywhere, if not harder?? If we are so quick to move a team after a few years of struggle, then I go back to the example of the Edmonton Oilers. They lost money for the better part of a decade. Then, a new ownership came in and under new management, with the same fan base and arena, became the 6th highest profiting team in the league. The fact that there are potential owners who are willing to give a go of Phoenix (who have proven to be able to have a 15k-16k average fan base) should be given that chance if it's what the league agrees to. Above that, it honors the existing leasing and agreements in Phoenix. If Balsillie moves the team, who gets stuck holding the bag on those contracts??? More than likely the NHL. That's not right either. And, above that, there is nothing saying that a different market would not be better suited over Hamilton. There might be markets that are more viable. Again, Balsillie's move takes that power away from the people who should make the decision.
It still comes back to my point that the NHL is losing it's power to run their league as they see fit. Not just Bettman, but every owner in the league today. Nothing anyone can say will justify that. Balsillie's is not the Hockey God that commands the type of power he is trying to weild. It's wrong any way I look at it.
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Guest7125
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Posted - 05/12/2009 : 18:19:51
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It's probably getting boring because you're repeating yourself and ignoring everyone who's disagreeing with you.
1) Why isn't (hasn't) the NHL board already made the decision to move?
2) I'm not familiar with the other attempts to move a team to Hamilton, so I won't comment.
3) You're completely ignoring the other factors that make a team successful. You don't move teams that are successful (Stanley Cups, rabid fan support, consistent playoff appearances) because they're going through a rough patch for the same reason that teams don't typically fire a losing coach the year after he wins a cup. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 05:54:04
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Beans, if in 2006 there really were 15,500 fans on average per game, wouldn't there be some kind of outrage at the team being moved right now?
The numbers are cooked, and many sportswriters have already covered this in detail. Giving away promo seats, free seats, etc to up the numbers. And, in the end, that attendance number is LISTED attendance, not the actual number of people there (as it is for everyone . . . but in Phoenix, where interest and knowledge of the game is low, you would have a much higher percentage of no-shows). I remember a Phoenix game in particular where after a Leafs game Andy Frost was talking about maybe three or four thousand people in the stands at most, but the listed attendance had been over 10,000 . . . for a game against the Leafs, remember (one of the league's higher draws).
REASONS FOR BATTMAN'S INEPTITUDE and BAD BUSINESS DECISIONS
Found this interesting blog, and he posits a very intriguing theory, one that sort of makes sense, in a way. He thinks that Bettman might be keeping these losing teams in the league to keep the salary cap down!
http://www.garybettmansucks.com/category/phoenix-coyotes/
The salary cap is determined from league revenue, and without a few of these franchises that constantly lose money, the league would make more money, and thus the cap would rise. I have a feeling that from the current owner's point of view, this would be a bad thing, as they'd be forced to spend more money (especially in big markets with more public pressure to spend to the cap) and thus rake in less profit. From a standpoint of explaining the seemingly backward actions of Bettman and the governors, this is a fair explanation.
Of course, it's also collusion, and illegal business practice . . . but that's nothing new to the NHL. Anyways, food for thought.
To Beans:
Why haven't Gary Bettman and the board of governors ALREADY been actively looking to move the franchise that is a money drag on the NHL? That is the question . . . Balsillie HAVING to force his way in is a RESULT of this bad business practice. If Bettman had already done his job properly, he would have move Phoenix a few years ago, and Balsillie would have been able to go through your "proper channels".
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2809
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Posted - 05/13/2009 : 06:46:28
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| It will NOT happen! Bettman's a huge douche bag and has something totaly against a Canadian team moving to Canada. He wants to make the market bigger in the States and he wants to promote it even tho it is NOT working in certain markets. As much as i would love to see a team in Southern Ontario, especially Hamilton, as long as Bettman stays in charge Jim Balsillie, will not own an NHL team neither will there be a team in Canada. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/13/2009 : 08:42:42
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That makes a -lot- of sense, slozo. If the cap goes up (or even stays consistent in some cases), the other bottom feeders go belly-up.
If nothing else, I guess Bettman could be considered an advocate for the little guy. XD
I'm going to be signing my posts 'J' from here-on-out because I don't want to be confused with the other guests.
J |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 10:00:44
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Slozo, to answer your question, I can't tell you because I am not Bettman or the Board. However, a couple of things I can assume (which is a dangerous word) are:
1) Bettman has gone on record as saying if he had any regrets in his career, it is moving franchises. Specifically Winnipeg and Quebec. We have seen teams in the past(and more than one) literally rise like a "Phoenix" (pun intended) out of the ashes after new ownership arrives (See the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames to name a few). IF (and I say If because only the NHL has stated this) there are owners that are willing to buy the franchise and keep it in Phoenix, that is what his first preference is. And as I stated in my last comments (which were not rebuked) there are currently leases and other agreements with the Coyotes. Who is on the hook for those if the team moves???
2) The Board of Governors(and NHL owners overall) are not morons. They are businessmen and most of them highly successful businessmen. They have kept Bettman in play for 16 years because the guy produces money. Going from $400 million a year in revenues to over $2.2 billion is not an easy task. More than quadruple income while dealing with 2 labour disputes, adding expansion teams, and dealing with more than one recession(al beit not as big as the one we are in) is no joke, regardless of weather you like the guy or not. In one hand, you have to trust their judgement as they are playing with their own money. On the other hand, you have to question why losing money franchises are not actioned sooner. I think the fact that there are nearly 1/2 the franchises listed as "the money losers" means that moving a team here or there is not the answer to the root cause of the problem. And, there are few if any business in the world that do not have some piece of their establishments that are leaking money or not producing. That's business.
3) There is a natural ebb and flow to business. For example, in 2004 the Colorado Avalanche had a listed value of $246 million, produced $99 million in revenue, but lost $1.1 million. In 2008, the Avalance are wother $214 million($32 million less), produce $71 million in revenue($28 million less), but had a profit of $6.6 million. My point is there is more than just attendance, fans support, and the likes that are in play here. The other piece is that if Colorado was to lose their franchise back 5 years ago when they were losing money, who's to say that the $6+ million they are making a year today would have been acheived somewhere else. I mean, that's a perfect example of a city who once had an NHL team, lost it, and got another back. It's a hasty decision just to up a move a franchise when it's losing. The first step always should be new ownership and management.
4) Let's say, just for the sake of arguement, the NHL finds a way to keep the team in Phoenix and it's purchased by the guy who owns the Bulls and the s***e Sox (sp). Sure, I agree that a team in Phoenix will never produce the same revenue that a team in Hamilton will, but that doesn't mean it CAN'T make money. It might not be a ton, but if it produces even $1 million a year or breaks even, the NHL has a viable team in what everyone considers an unviable market and still has the opportunity to put a team in Southern Ontario if it makes sense and has the right ownership. Plus, it honors it's current contracts and commitments in the location it is currently at.
5) It is the fans and the media that are making this out to be the circus it is. Any reason why this happens in the heart of the NHL playoffs??? Because Balsillie needs support from the masses to even have a chance at this. He annouces this 3 days after the Cup, it's a passing comment on Sportscentre. Just another Balsillie move to big the big middle finger to the NHL and Bettman. It's talked about off and on for about a week. No one analyzing it, no one bloging about it, it's just another off season story. In the midst of the playoffs, he has 2 games a night with 15 minutes between each period for the media frenzy to drive this, plus the sport centres, and the GTA who are starved something represent the Centre of the Canadian Universe.
6)And we are still bouncing away from my point which is not what is right or wrong economically, but what is right or wrong in Balsillie's attempt. The consistant arguement from people is that it makes business sense so Balsillie is right. Doesn't make it right to me to not follow the rules that are established and followed by every other owner and franchise in the league. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 10:10:06
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Hey Beans, nobody here is attacking your arguement here. I understand your points here and can see the NHL's owner point of view.
1. You and the NHL contend it is the right of the ownership group to decide on relocating the team and that studies, market research must support the move..........
I agree, but I am sure Mr Blackberry If required could provide market research which could support his claim that Hamilton is a viable market and the players union, municipal, provincial and federal government already support it. I do not believe any amount of fact or reason would persuad this ownership group to vote Basillie's way. I actually believe the Players union should have and equal right in deciding location and as I've stated they support this offer.
2. Your second point is with regards to T.O. rights with regards to a conflicting team in their market.
Hamilton is not Toronto it is close maybe within the km restrictions but clearly the same market. Toronto has what 4 million people in it. The city of Toronto could even sustain a 2nd franchise. There are rules in place to compensate a franchise if the believe they require compensation. It is thinking like this that has prevented the growth of this sport.
3. Your 3rd point, and the most important point is Jim Basillie has gone outside of the rules of the NHL to attain a franchise and move it.
Has he not tried to go thru the proper channel and been stopped every time by the current ownership group. They have thrown down the gauntlet to Mr Blackberry, saying, you are not one of us. It was not him but Moyers who moved to bankruptcy to allow this to happen. All he did was make a proposition to Moyer's and the NHL
4. Gary Bettman has no vote.....
Wrong! Gary and the NHL bought the rights to Pheonix's voting rights is the contention of the filing by the NHL right now. If 12 team are losing money how many have signed there voting rights over to the NHL and Bettman. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 10:14:08
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And Slozo, to your point about revenue, it's not about losing money. For example, the Bruins have one of the highest revenues in the league at $87 million. However, they lost almost $1 million overall. The salary cap is based on the $87 million they bring in, not the $1 million they lost.
So, overall the league produced $2.2 billion in reveune, which the cap is based on. Not the $141 million in profits that were produced. (Wow, a 7% producing investment, where the hell were you 6 months ago when I was taking a bath!)
The theory works the same, but it's based on revenues, not profits. And consider that in the 06/07 season, the Washington Capitals, with all of their superstars, their X number of years in the league, the NHL freely marketing their #1 guy brought in less revenue than that toilet of a franchise in Phoenix.
But again, let's consider that the bottom 5 teams that are losing money fall off the chart. This brings league revenues down from $2.2 billion to $2 billion. This mean the 25 remain teams have a min cap of $40 million and a max closter to $60 million. So the players make more money. And, because the teams that are gone were money losers, the profits go from $141 million to about $190 million, so the owners make more money. So it's a win/win, at least for the players who are still playing. Because you just dropped about 120 players out of the league, and 5 farm teams and their players as well.
So many things to consider, it's just not cut and dry. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 10:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Still missing my point. People continue to go back to Phoenix being a weak market and that is not my point. Not even a little bit. Sure, I am not as big an advocate as other are on another team in the GTA, but that's irrelevant.
People don't seem to get it through their head that the issue at hand is not where the team should be. It's the fact that Balsillie is trying to take the NHL out of the decision making process. That is the piece that is dead wrong.
And on another note, isn't there a little bit of a question where there is another group, how are interested in moving Atlanta to Hamilton(through the proper NHL channels) but the city of Hamilton is saying they will only work with Balsillie??? I don't get it. If the issue is having a team in the GTA, wouldn't the city work with anyone willing to fund and support a team??
Jim Basillie has aquired the rights to Copp's Collisium and has already garnered the support of politican's of all 3 levels in canada to have a team in Hamilton. I read this today with regards to an Atlanta purchase. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Still missing my point. People continue to go back to Phoenix being a weak market and that is not my point. Not even a little bit. Sure, I am not as big an advocate as other are on another team in the GTA, but that's irrelevant.
People don't seem to get it through their head that the issue at hand is not where the team should be. It's the fact that Balsillie is trying to take the NHL out of the decision making process. That is the piece that is dead wrong.
And on another note, isn't there a little bit of a question where there is another group, how are interested in moving Atlanta to Hamilton(through the proper NHL channels) but the city of Hamilton is saying they will only work with Balsillie??? I don't get it. If the issue is having a team in the GTA, wouldn't the city work with anyone willing to fund and support a team??
Jim Basillie has aquired the rights to Copp's Collisium and has already garnered the support of politican's of all 3 levels in canada to have a team in Hamilton. I read this today with regards to an Atlanta purchase.
Regardless, if this was only about having a team in Hamilton, they City, Province, and Feds would work with any legitimate owner who wanted to have a team, not just Balsillie. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 16:42:22
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| Is basillie part of the group that offered to buy the whole league during the lockout. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/13/2009 : 17:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
OK, a couple quick points because I am growing very bored of this arguement.
1) The way that Moyes and Balsillie are going about this is making it NOT the decision of the NHL Board. Balsillie's deal is conditional on moving the team to Southern Ontario. If the courts decide to accept the offer, the NHL has limited options if any. That is taking 100% of the power away from the people who deserve it and that is not right in the NHL or any other business. If the deal is agreed to (from what I understand) they will be forced to either accept the team or consider it not part of the NHL (which I believe they have the power to do). Neither is a good thing for the league in the long run.
3) If it's all about a team in Hamilton and not about Balsillie and his "arrangements," then why is the City of Hamilton not interested in working with anyone but Balsillie?? That group that is interested in moving Atlanta to Hamilton(through the proper channels I might add) have been publicly denied by the City of Hamilton because Balsillie is not involved. That makes it not about a team in Southern Ontario, that makes it about Balsillie's team. As I said before, no one man is bigger than the league.
3) Phoenix, in 2006 averaging 15,500 fans per home game. That was higher 8 other teams in the league, including Anaheim, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, and Washington. Is it that hard for people to comprehend that the economy in the States has hit Phoenix as hard as anywhere, if not harder?? If we are so quick to move a team after a few years of struggle, then I go back to the example of the Edmonton Oilers. They lost money for the better part of a decade. Then, a new ownership came in and under new management, with the same fan base and arena, became the 6th highest profiting team in the league. The fact that there are potential owners who are willing to give a go of Phoenix (who have proven to be able to have a 15k-16k average fan base) should be given that chance if it's what the league agrees to. Above that, it honors the existing leasing and agreements in Phoenix. If Balsillie moves the team, who gets stuck holding the bag on those contracts??? More than likely the NHL. That's not right either. And, above that, there is nothing saying that a different market would not be better suited over Hamilton. There might be markets that are more viable. Again, Balsillie's move takes that power away from the people who should make the decision.
It still comes back to my point that the NHL is losing it's power to run their league as they see fit. Not just Bettman, but every owner in the league today. Nothing anyone can say will justify that. Balsillie's is not the Hockey God that commands the type of power he is trying to weild. It's wrong any way I look at it.
just one last point since your defending the chosen ones the owners. If no one came to watch any Nhl game would bettman care. My point is it is the fans who decide who makes millions and what teams\leagues are succesful (not the fat cats with questionable judgement and integrity) it isnt the owners money floating the league its the fans money or al least their attention to the game. And dont even try to post tv rev or owners money etc. because if no one watched or no one cared do you think any team would pay millions in salarys. OR advertisers would want their commercial aired during the game. If basiile is wrong the fans will let him no. Cdn fans should let bettman know we want another team.Players and owners of baseball teams learned after thei strike when they alienated the fans what happens. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/13/2009 : 17:33:10
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| beans who are these owners willing to buy reinsdorf has come out publicly denying any interest said the first he heard of it was in news . 2. gary b qouted as saying phoenix is fine then couple months later that league wasnt covering payroll now apparently league owns the team and gary lied. Says the league is fine than 10 maybe more teams are losing money. Says attendance is up yet teams are reporting individually attendance is down. Beans keep drinking bettmans kool aid you sure your not the eagle |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 19:37:42
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Heard on the TV in between periods that Reisendorf came in with a bid close to a hundred million LESS than Balsillie's bid.
You see the kind of pressure required here, before people budge? The mayor of Hamilton, Balsillie doing everything and more, putting up an incredibly high (really overpaying, in my mind) bid, going through courts . . . this is a full court press - rather, a two-man advantage, and it's for 5 minutes. Something's gotta give!
Balsillie put in the bid at this time so that he still had time to move the team for logistics reasons, btw - not publicity. Publicity doesn't help, actually . . . it only serves to throw more egg on Bettman's face and causes him to fight everything tooth and nail no matter the consequence.
I hope Bettman goes down in flames hard for this . . . I have a feeling he will. He has way too much pride and he's stubborn as a mule, I see it coming.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 08:29:37
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Couple of things:
Firstly, Reinsdorf had been in talked with Moyes about the purchase. The number I heard was $130 million. That being said, the last valuation I could find was from the 2007/2008 season which had the Coyotes valued at $142 million.
We all know that the value of the franchise did not increase since that time. The offer from Reinsdorf(and Colangelo who owns the Suns) might have been a little low, but it is definately more equitable value wise than the $70+ million overbid that Balsillie is making.
And here is an interesting story from the Star.com that talks about the City of Glendale also getting involved stating they have a 30 year lease and a no-movement argreement with the Coyotes. Interesting point, but it might be comletely irrelevant if the judge allows the bankruptcy to happen.
The story twists deeper............
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634109 |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/14/2009 : 09:47:32
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The comments on there are kind of discouraging...
Here I am trying to assert viability of the hockey market in Southern Ontario and the residents are asserting the fact that they're taking offense to the prospect of their tax dollars being allocated to make it happen.
Boy, is my face red...
J |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/14/2009 : 15:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of things:
Firstly, Reinsdorf had been in talked with Moyes about the purchase. The number I heard was $130 million. That being said, the last valuation I could find was from the 2007/2008 season which had the Coyotes valued at $142 million.
We all know that the value of the franchise did not increase since that time. The offer from Reinsdorf(and Colangelo who owns the Suns) might have been a little low, but it is definately more equitable value wise than the $70+ million overbid that Balsillie is making.
And here is an interesting story from the Star.com that talks about the City of Glendale also getting involved stating they have a 30 year lease and a no-movement argreement with the Coyotes. Interesting point, but it might be comletely irrelevant if the judge allows the bankruptcy to happen.
The story twists deeper............
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634109
no bettman suposedly was talking to reins doerf (which reinsdork spokesman denied said nhl approached them Not Interested)both moyes and reinsdorf on record said they dindt have discussions |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 18:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of things:
Firstly, Reinsdorf had been in talked with Moyes about the purchase. The number I heard was $130 million. That being said, the last valuation I could find was from the 2007/2008 season which had the Coyotes valued at $142 million.
We all know that the value of the franchise did not increase since that time. The offer from Reinsdorf(and Colangelo who owns the Suns) might have been a little low, but it is definately more equitable value wise than the $70+ million overbid that Balsillie is making.
And here is an interesting story from the Star.com that talks about the City of Glendale also getting involved stating they have a 30 year lease and a no-movement argreement with the Coyotes. Interesting point, but it might be comletely irrelevant if the judge allows the bankruptcy to happen.
The story twists deeper............
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634109
no bettman suposedly was talking to reins doerf (which reinsdork spokesman denied said nhl approached them Not Interested)both moyes and reinsdorf on record said they dindt have discussions
A little proof would be nice. Any news story??? Because I can find many stating he was talking with Moyes. Can't find any saying he denied it. I'd love to see a link or two.
By the way, here is an interesting story from TSN talking with a former minority owner of an NHL team. Obviously, TSN will not say exactly who it is, but you have to think that TSN also wouldn't report on just a whime. This is an owner's point of view, which is very interesting.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277787 |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 09:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well, you can say all you want that the base of the arguement is the viability of the team in Phoenix. I will always disagree. The base of this arguement is who's decision is it to move a team. That is the root of my arguement. I am not arguing the viability of Phoenix.
To put this to bed, I 100% AGREE THAT A TEAM IN HAMILTON WOULD BE MORE ECONOMICALLY PRODUCTIVE THAN A TEAM IN PHOENIX.
There, now that we got that out of the way. Who's decision is it to move a team??? Not the single owner selling, not the new owner buys, not the fans or even the Commish. It's the Board of Governors.
Oh, by the way, Al Davis lost his lawsuit against the NFL in July of 2007. Technically, the league can throw him out of the NFL when ever they want and there is nothing he can do about it as it was decided upon by the Supreme court. I expected that, and ultimately Davis lost. The fact that NFL keeps him around does not change the fact that it was not his decision to move the team in the first place.
Ummmm, check again, and perhaps this time you could go back a little further, say to 1982 and Davis' anti-trust winning lawsuit he won to move the Raiders to Los Angeles.
Don't get me worng, I think Davis is a pinhead, but you asked for an example and I gave you one. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 14:52:47
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Hey Bean's thanks for the links for the article's. They are really in depth about the legal problems both sides are going to have to jump thru. It is not a lock by either side here.
A couple of things said here is the Board of Governers will try to exercise there leverage to prevent a location change for Phoenix. If they do this set's precident that a current owner of a losing franchise such as St. Louis, Buffalo, Nashville, Atlanta may not be able to move to a town which could support the team or lower costs associated to arena and revenue. In addition by declining the offer the have now devalued all of the franchises and all future offers by prospective ownerships group will come in at adjusted values.
The city of "Glendale" has now joined in saying the 26 year's remaining of the lease trumps a bankruptcy proceeding. Once status of ownership is resolved they believe the cities lease would not be affected as it states the new or previous owners our still binded to the lease agreement regardless of bankruptcy proceedings. (I'd like to see what the judge thinks of the city telling him what he can and can't do here)
Jerry Moyer's may have no choice but to accept a lower offer now as the city and the league have painted him into a corner. All of the people from the Owners side are painting Moyer's as the bad guy here for the tactics being employed here. What if it was their money lost and their franchise being undervalued. Im certain when Bettman sold Jerry the franchise they said what a great investment -- you get 3-4years of ownership and spend $75 million of your money that you will never get back and we will give you $28 million for your all your rights to your $200 million franchise. By the we you cant sell it for $213 million, you have to take $130 million, because we love to throw away your money.
Do you think Jerry would have bought Phoenix if he had known that. What is crazy is Basillie wants in to this silly group of owners. I think Basillie and that Vancouver group should get together with the Chicago Red Sox Guy and open there own League like to WHA!!! |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/15/2009 : 15:32:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of things:
Firstly, Reinsdorf had been in talked with Moyes about the purchase. The number I heard was $130 million. That being said, the last valuation I could find was from the 2007/2008 season which had the Coyotes valued at $142 million.
We all know that the value of the franchise did not increase since that time. The offer from Reinsdorf(and Colangelo who owns the Suns) might have been a little low, but it is definately more equitable value wise than the $70+ million overbid that Balsillie is making.
And here is an interesting story from the Star.com that talks about the City of Glendale also getting involved stating they have a 30 year lease and a no-movement argreement with the Coyotes. Interesting point, but it might be comletely irrelevant if the judge allows the bankruptcy to happen.
The story twists deeper............
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634109
no bettman suposedly was talking to reins doerf (which reinsdork spokesman denied said nhl approached them Not Interested)both moyes and reinsdorf on record said they dindt have discussions
A little proof would be nice. Any news story??? Because I can find many stating he was talking with Moyes. Can't find any saying he denied it. I'd love to see a link or two.
By the way, here is an interesting story from TSN talking with a former minority owner of an NHL team. Obviously, TSN will not say exactly who it is, but you have to think that TSN also wouldn't report on just a whime. This is an owner's point of view, which is very interesting.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277787
just google it the only one saying he was interested is daly and you his representave put a said he wasnt whou you gonna believe try cbc sports |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/15/2009 : 15:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of things:
Firstly, Reinsdorf had been in talked with Moyes about the purchase. The number I heard was $130 million. That being said, the last valuation I could find was from the 2007/2008 season which had the Coyotes valued at $142 million.
We all know that the value of the franchise did not increase since that time. The offer from Reinsdorf(and Colangelo who owns the Suns) might have been a little low, but it is definately more equitable value wise than the $70+ million overbid that Balsillie is making.
And here is an interesting story from the Star.com that talks about the City of Glendale also getting involved stating they have a 30 year lease and a no-movement argreement with the Coyotes. Interesting point, but it might be comletely irrelevant if the judge allows the bankruptcy to happen.
The story twists deeper............
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634109
no bettman suposedly was talking to reins doerf (which reinsdork spokesman denied said nhl approached them Not Interested)both moyes and reinsdorf on record said they dindt have discussions
A little proof would be nice. Any news story??? Because I can find many stating he was talking with Moyes. Can't find any saying he denied it. I'd love to see a link or two.
By the way, here is an interesting story from TSN talking with a former minority owner of an NHL team. Obviously, TSN will not say exactly who it is, but you have to think that TSN also wouldn't report on just a whime. This is an owner's point of view, which is very interesting.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277787
just google it the only one saying he was interested is daly and you his representave put a said he wasnt whou you gonna believe try cbc sports
Moyes has sia he sunk 300 million into it |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/15/2009 : 16:04:20
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| If there was an offer pending from reinsdorf why is nhl blocking basille and the banruptcy court from seeing it. Privacy (after daly blabbed about it. Find me one quote from reinsdorf or his people that he is interested or ever was. And not that dinner in march. Tsn is tied down or in bed with nhl (bettman has too much power intervews etc.)Everthing ive read his sources say gee who is the source bettman daly daly secretary not one quote from reinsdorf only his spokemans.Owner suposedly lost 300 million who in their right mind would buy a team that loses 45 mill yr. Sources also nhl wasnt in control of leaque record attendance etc best year ever but 13 out 30 are losing money even according to your numbers beans majority are losing money. So what is your soloution if you cant move the team another lockout. Charity by govts, new arenas for everyone(one foot off basille wagon in repect for his asking for govt help)You say owners are smart business people how in the world did they get them selves in this situation. See if i got this right betman talks moyes into helping original owner lending him 5 million to keep team afloat. Ends up ownig the team to keep it in phoenix loses his shirt.Bettman offers to float his payroll 38 milliion surreptiously puts in a clause saying he basically just bought the team(for one third of its value) your words> Arranges for reinsdorf to buy the team from Moyes without bothering to even text Moyes on his blackberry to let him know help his on the way. According to your sources they discussed deal in early march but let a guyteetering on the edge of bankruptcy(his friend that turned on bettman) until basille made an offer. When did nhl loan/buy coyotes. Rumours started around christmas that nhl was covering payroll. Gee with friends like that, and now you think he should take 80 million less(friend discount). Question if nhl is so right as you say than why are they so afraid of going to court. Ps i beleive the case al davis lost in 2007 was he wanted to move it again. I dont beleive the nfl won as raiders are still in la have been for 25 plus year(they seem to be doing all right and a few of their franchises have moved. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/15/2009 : 16:15:00
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| try this sorry dont know how to post links www. nbcchicago.com/sports/hockey/Jerry Reinsdorf-Wants-No-Part-Of-The-Phoenix-Coyotes |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 16:43:56
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Beans and I haven't gotten into it about Balsille and the NHL before. There was an excellent article in the Toronto Star today about this topic and Balsille's past attempts. The interview is his words.
So I say read the article and you will understand where Mr.Balsille is coming from. I will post the link and after reading the article you will see that revenues and attendance or the viability of the Pheonix Coyotes are now a mute point in this topic. The Coyotes are bankrupt and are either owned by the NHL or by Moyes. Either way a court will decide the way it goes. The power of decision truly lies with neither Moyes or the NHL. It lies with a judge in bankruptcy court.
Beans, I agree yet I disagree with your statement that Balsille is trying to take the decision making or the power out the leagues hand to make relocation decisions. He is playing within his "legal" rights to make a bid on a bankrupt franchise. His bid includes a clause that it moves to southwest ontario (not necessarily Hamilton). Whether Moyes is the owner or the NHL is the owner, they are required under US bankruptcy law to "make good" to their creditors. Balsilles bid is the only bid on the table that covers all creditors payback. Is he forcing the NHL to make the decision they do not want to make because then Bettman has to admit his plan has failed? Yes and no. He is using the law to his favour which in a way is taking the decision away from the NHL and one could say it is not fair. But lets face it, the Bettman has not played fair with him either.
One point I would like to make is that it is very peculiar how only days before Balsilles bid was made public, the NHL said that the Pheonix franchise is not in NHL control and is not in a bankrupt position. (I only read this today as i surf this topic). But now they are claiming they are. Has Bettman changed the rules again?
Do not be surprised the court rules in favour of Moyes bankruptcy and Balsilles bid that the Board of Governers votes in favour of Balsilles bid. I think the money making franchises would like to not pay royalties to one less failing franchise. Even TO would rather have another local rivalry then pay royalties to failing franchises.
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/634643
I hope this link works, it is the article that i mentioned.
The bottom line is I agree whole heartedly with Balsille. Canada is hockey, the southwest Ontario market can more than support another team. The guy just wants to bring another team here, that is his goal. I hope he does it.
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Edited by - Porkchop73 on 05/15/2009 16:58:24 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 23:05:44
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btw, I did sign up for that "Make It 7" website . . . and just got an email from them I would like to share with you, copied here:
Dear Hockey Fans,
Thank you for taking the time to sign up to MakeItSeven.ca. I want you to know, from one passionate hockey fan to another, I really appreciate it.
Since I announced my offer to buy the Phoenix Coyotes, the response and support I have received from across Canada has been overwhelming. Within hours, more than 10,000 people had signed up at MakeItSeven.ca and every day thousands of Canadians continue to add their names and their support. Today more than 120,000 people have joined MakeItSeven.ca. Many of you have contacted me with suggestions and advice on a number of matters related to our mission to bring another NHL team to Canada. I appreciate all of it.
While we are early in the process, I am more optimistic than ever that we are one step closer to bringing another NHL team to Southern Ontario and to Canada. I am excited to announce that two iconic Canadian brands, Home Hardware and Labatt, both supporters of hockey across this country, have joined the Make It Seven campaign. The MakeItSeven.ca website is also up and running today as our campaign hub. Through the site you, the fans, will have an opportunity to shape the Make It Seven campaign by uploading your own content, interacting with each other and getting regular updates on our progress. Please take the time to visit MakeItSeven.ca again and continue to participate in this important movement. For those of you who want to follow the progress in other ways, we have also set up an official Twitter account as @makeitseven.
Thanks again for your support. Please contact all of your friends and family and ask them to sign up with you. Together, with our partners Home Hardware and Labatt and passionate Canadian hockey fans from coast to coast, we can make it happen. Together, we can make it seven!
Jim
Jim Balsillie
This email was sent by:
Make It Seven Inc
218 - 34 Eglinton Avenue West Toronto, ON, M4R 2H6, Canada
Click here to Unsubscribe | Click here to Update Profile
Privacy Policy
That really says it all, doesn't it?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4629
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Posted - 05/16/2009 : 11:03:30
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| While I support the idea of another team moving to Canada, what Balsillie did was wrong and the NHL has every right to block it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 17:55:52
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Obviously, there are various things to talk about.
1) Guest 4094. Firstly, of course the NHL and Reinsdorf do not want to provide details on the bid. Why?? Because that's bad business. You never tell state what is are offered until it's accepted. Secondly, $300 million in losses is not accurate. Being the fan of Google that you are, Google "NHL Team Valuations." If you dig around a little, you will find the yearly lists by Forbes of the values, revenue, debt, and operating income from every team in the league. That is where you will find closest to the truth you will find. And finally, your "Jerry Reinsdorf wants not part of the Coyotes" link didn't work. However, it did find your story. It was dated back in early Feb and it was not official. It was not quoted, it was reported by "sources. It is now May. There are various places that show there is an investing group including Reinsdorf that has made an offer for the team.
2) Porkchop - I don't think this is sending any kind of message to prospective buyers in the light you are saying. A business losing money is often sold for less than what it's worth. No different than a money making business is often sold for more. If anything, the message from the NHL is telling potential owners that they can't just come in and make decisions for the league based on their own wishes. I read the whole article you posted. A whole lot of "I" want this, and "I" want that. It's all about Balsillie.
Honestly, this is exactly what I want to happen.
1 - The NHL loses their court battle and the judge agrees with the bankrupcy and supports moving the team.
2 - There are no further legal actions the NHL can pursue
3 - The Phoenix Coyotes are moved to Hamilton
4 - Season tickets are purchased, Balsillie drops millions into Copps Coliseum.
5 - All the fans are pumped, people are all excited.
6 - The NHL Owners get together and decide that the team in the NHL is the "Phoenix Coyotes" and since that team no longer exist, there are 29 recognized NHL teams.
7 - Balsillie is left holding the bag, $212 million lighter in the pocket, millions invested into a stadium. A shiny pro hockey team with no league to play in.
That would be poetic justice. Only problem is, the fans would feel the pain from that. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 19:13:34
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That's a terrible thing to wish for, Beans. That says to me you have some personal resentment and a grudge, and that it supercedes your needs as a hockey fan.
Anyways - latest e-mail from Mr. Balsillie . . . I am really starting to like his style, so nice to get direct communications like this!
(copied and pasted from my e-mail)
Dear Hockey Fans,
I hope you are enjoying the holiday long weekend. I wanted to take a moment of your time as a passionate hockey fan to let you know about the latest developments in our bid to bring a seventh NHL franchise to Canada.
Last week, the NHL filed a motion with the bankruptcy court in Phoenix which argued, in part, that scheduling issues made it impossible to fulfill the main condition of my offer to buy the Phoenix Coyotes, that is to bring the team to Hamilton and to begin NHL-scheduled play this fall.
I say to all Canadians, but in particular to the many Hamilton and Southern Ontario supporters of our bid: my commitment to bringing an NHL team to Hamilton remains. It's my firm commitment to Hamilton hockey fans. It's the best un-served hockey market in the world and it deserves an NHL team.
If bringing an NHL team to Hamilton means needing to remove a scheduling impediment to my bid to purchase the Coyotes franchise, I am willing to do what is necessary to assist the NHL in order to get us to our ultimate goal. That is why I have indicated to the bankruptcy court, in reply to the NHL's argument, that if beginning NHL play in Hamilton this fall truly creates a scheduling impediment, I am willing to remove that impediment and leave the team in Phoenix for one additional season.
I know you share with me our end goal here - to bring a seventh NHL franchise to Canada, and specifically to Copps Coliseum in Hamilton. I appreciate that support. We're focused on making that happen, and making it seven. So stay tuned and I will keep you up to date with the latest developments.
Again, thank you for taking the time to sign up to MakeItSeven.ca. Please contact all of your friends and family and ask them to sign up with you. Together we can make it happen.
Jim
Jim Balsillie
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 19:27:10
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I think that Jim Balsillie is fighting a worthy cause but he is doing it with reckless abandon. He isn't even trying to be politically correct or diplomatic. He's going into the ring with the league, with no status whatsoever or affiliation with the NHL, and basically expecting everyone to bow to his demands.
Which has its good sides and its drawbacks.
The good thing about it is that it really gets things moving, and it forces the NHL to look at the issue as opposed to ignoring it. Being discreet and political would, at the end of the day, get nowhere.
The bad thing is that he won't win. The NHL just does not want him to have the team. He may pave the road for another owner to do what he wanted, but I highly doubt that in the personality clash between Bettman and Balsillie, the latter will come out on top. And in all honestly that's how it should be.
Bettman needs to impose the authority of the league where it belongs. You can't buy your way through the rule book. Moving Phoenix will kill the market before it had a chance to prove itself, do a disservice to the fans, be a hassle for the players, force a realignment of the conferences / divisions, cost a lot of money, and possibly take away from Toronto and Buffalo franchises. I've got to think that as a commissioner you need to make cool headed decisions and stick to your convictions as opposed to jumping on the flavour-of-the-month bandwagon. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 20:46:19
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Hey Slozo, it has nothing to do with personal resentment or a grudge. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and I believe in Karma. Good things happen to people who are deserving. People who bully and push their way through, they get what they deserve in the end.
And all this appreciation for the e-mails to people. Were you not the one who said the media and fan hype will hurt his cause?? And it's propoganda. It's making him look like a golden boy. On the otherside, the NHL is making him look like Satan. The true is somewhere in the middle.
I think Alex said it the best yet, and I totally agree. It's not Balsillie's cause that's the problem, it's the way he's doing it. And it's the flavor the month. Nicely said. |
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Balsillie to buy the Phoenix Coyotes? 
