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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2009 : 05:58:27
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Alex and Beans, your right it is the flavour of the month and it makes most Canadians crazy because they know they are the heart and sole of the game. For most southern Ontarians the prospect of another team is so tantalizing.
But I still fail to see where it is that Balsille is doing something wrong with his latest bid to get a team. He has followed the legal process allowed to him when a team files bankruptcy. The so called bid from Reinsdorf in Chicago is following the same principle but without a specific relocation clause yet it is not being said he is forcing his will on the league. It cannot be said that Balsille is forcing anything when it is a legal process he is following. The only thing you can say he has done wrong is gone public with his intentions to move the team. That is the only thing the NHL does not like otherwise they would welcome a guy who would be the single richest owner in the league. (I mean one person as the owner not a group like MSEL).
Lets look at the latest statement from Balsille where he says he will remove the relocation clause to southwest ontario from his bid. He still wants the abililty to relocate a team should it fail, any smart businessman would, who wants to lose money, yet the NHL would not accept it still. They would rather stay put and have the owners lose money. What does the NHL care when the other richer teams make up the revenue lost from franchises like Phoenix.
What you have to admit is that Bettman is wrong in his dealings with this for the good of NHL. That is his job, to act as representative of the owners in the league in a manner that improves and is for the betterment of the NHL. How is Bettman doing his job by forcing the NHL to maintain franchises in market areas where teams are not sustaining operability without losing money for the league and the owner or getting royalty payments from the more lucrative franchices. It is to the better of the league and owners to look at which situation is better for the league. We know the answer in this scenerio.
We cannot argue cannot argue that it is a hassle for players when you consider how many players are traded or moved each year especially at the trade deadline and after Free agency.
You cannot argue that Balsille would not be good for the NHL and hockey world wide. He is passionate and knowledgable about the game and he has the business resources, capability and location to make one the most profitable franshises in the game.
As for realignment, the NHL is long overdue for it. Just ask Redwing management. A realignment could provide better scheduling, ease of travel, and a chance to renew rivalries that have been allowed to die.
Balsille is not bullying, he is not forcing, he is not doing anything wrong. He is following a legal process to achieve his dream of owning a NHL franchise in Ontario. There is nothing wrong with chasing your dreams. If he had not made his dream public it would have come true already.
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Edited by - Porkchop73 on 05/17/2009 06:04:41 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 15:43:45
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Wow, seriously?? Exactly what Balsillie is doing is attempting to bully and push his way into a team where he wants it. What makes that wrong?? Very simple. IT IS THE NHL'S DECISION!! There is no owner in the league today that can just move a team somewhere else, or sell a team to an owner intending on moving the team WITHOUT NHL CONSENT!!!
The other issue is that there was an offer on the table(potentially, we'll see if the courts force the NHL to release the information) from an ownership group to buy the team and keep them in Phoenix. But, Moyes and Balsillie formulate this plan that will put more money in Moyes' pocket and move the team.
It is that simple and the only issue I have with Balsillie. Going back to my 'stupid' Tim Horton's analogy. If I buy a Tim Horton's that is currently on the corner of 5th st and 5th ave in Anytown, Canada that is where I bought my Tim's. I do not have the right to move that Timmy's to the corner of 3rd and 3rd because I think it will make more money. I don't get to change the prices of the products or offer Starbuck's coffe as well. Timmy's corporate will tell me to go fly a kite and if I do want to move my business, it will not be a Timmy's anymore. I buy a franchise, I follow the corporate rules. If I don't, I am not a franchise any longer.
It is today and always will be a corporate decision as to where franchises are located as well as the rules defined corporately in any business or sport.
And just a couple of other things. Firstly, of course Balsillie is trying to gain more 'fan' support by saying he will keep the team in Phoenix for one more year. He is trying to show that he is willing to work with the NHL. But again, I see it as very self serving. Let's say, because I am completely insane and moronic, that the Coyotes make the playoffs next year(really not that far fetched looking at that team). Because of this, they make an additional X million dollars of revenues and break even or even turn a small profit. Then what??? Balsillie is still moving them! But all us 'fans' who are looking for another team in Canada don't care, just bring them north, right!! So then it's proven that the Phoenix team can make a profit, but they are being moved anyway.
And although I am doing my very best to not take media releases to heart from either the Balsillie camp or the NHL, it's hard not to see the logic is Bettman's latest comments. Seeing that the facility in Winnipeg is 30 years newer than the one in Hamilton, and that City did have a pro hockey team (WHA and NHL) for nearly 25 years, why would then not be the logical choice for the team in Phoenix relocate to? He is also being smart in saying that he is not opposed to a team in Hamilton, but it will be by expansion if it does happen. And, he always reverts to wanting to keep the team in Phoenix.
Now, the first thing that I have to question is the difference in capacity. Copps hold over 17,000 for hockey and the one in Winnipeg (MTS Centre) is just a shade over 15,000. That seems a bit low compared to other newer NHL facilities. That would be the lowest in the NHL and a prospective owner would be limited by that. However, it is interesting that the current AHL team in Manitoba leads the league in home Attendance and Hamilton's AHL team ranks 12th out of 16 teams in the AHL and are very close to 1/4 of the attendance in Winnipeg. Both Hamilton and Winnipeg have municipal and provincial support for a team.
I am not saying that I am an advocate of a team in Winnipeg, I am saying that the decision is not Balsillie's to make. It's not Bettman's either. It's the league as a whole. There is a reason that total league ownership gets a vote on both expansion as well as relocation. The decision needs to remain where it belongs, not to single owner with his own intentions. But none of this matters. People don't see the forest for the trees. They don't see anything wrong as long as the team comes to Southern Ontario.
As, I said before, put the shoe on the other foot. Take the name "Phoenix Coyotes" and "Southern Ontario" out of them equation and replace them with your favorite Canadian team and an American City. I bet people aren't so happy about things at that point are they?? |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 15:49:25
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For those who say hockey won't work in the desert, here is what I have to say - take a lesson from the MLB this season.
I don't think many people would say that snowy Toronto is a ''traditional baseball market.'' The Jays have failed to grab my attention every year, because they've never made much noise. All of a sudden this season, they're playing incredible, and guess what? All my friends are watching. If they ever made the playoffs, you can bet I'd watch every single game. And I'd definitely go with friends to games the next season. It's a decent outing, and it feels great to go when the team is doing well.
You don't think that can happen with hockey? Guys, hockey is far more exciting. If you can get a winning team, built around a guy like Ovechkin in the desert, you don't think things would take off? I'm telling you they would. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 15:55:36
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Just couple more things:
Bettman does not have an unconditional contract with the NHL. His leadership is scrutinized each year by the Board of Governors. So his tenure has been endorsed by the majority of the current owners. And, don't you think for one second that 'if' the current NHL owners didn't think the actions of Bettman were unjust, they would deal with that??
Balsillie would not be the only uber-rich owner. Daryl Katz (Edmonton Oilers) is also a billionarrie. They are not that far apart on the list.
As long as the owner is willing to invest sufficient money and have the proper people in place, an owner who has never watched a single game of hockey in their life can be as successful as a seasoned vet. Mike Ilitch is a former military guy, potential baseball player, and founder of a pizza chain. Not a hockey guy(at least not when he started) yet he gets quality people in his group like Ken Holland. No hockey knowledge required. Money and the proper people running the show are the only requirements.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 16:59:23
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I guess I missed the point again. What I am saying is that this situation is no longer about Balsille, Moyes or the NHL. It is all about the US bankruptcy law. It does not matter, under law, who has done what, how they have done it, or what they did in the past. They will decide in the best interest of the creditors who are now owed monies by the owner who filed bankruptcy. They have to, it is the law. Now Balsilles bid covers every last bit of it making it the most likely to be awarded by the courts.
You can call it sneeky, a backdoor deal, whatever you want. It is no longer the NHL's decision and that is why the Bettman is scrambling filing all of the affidavits with the courts in Pheonix.
Gentlemen these things happen all the time in business. If the owner of the Tim Hortons on 5th and 5th in Anytown declared bankruptcy, the franchise would be sold, the creditors paid and most likely the franchise would be moved to another location unless a new owner decides that the money losing location is good enough for him and he has about $500,000 for new Tim Hortons franchising rights to throw away on another Tim Hortons in the same money losing location.
I did not say the only uber rich I said the richest. I am not talking only on the forbes list. There is more to rich then making the forbes list. Mike Ilitch is a perfect example of what Balsille could be as an owner. Well liked, great hockey market, huge fan base, and he gets the right people for the right jobs.
Why wouldn't the current owners like Bettman, he enables the owners who do not make any money to steal money in the form of royalty payments from the owners in league who do make money. That is like if in your job you were not quite making the same as the guy next you so he had to give you 10% of his salary to make it fair. You certainly are not going to turn it down are you. Pretty soon that guy is going to turn and say no more, which is likely what teams like TO, NYR, and DET are going to start saying. Nobody gives money for nothing, not any business anywhere. Not even Tim Hortons on 5th and 5th in Anytown, Canada.
Personally I don't care where a franchise goes, being Canadian I would love to see another one in Canada, being from southern ontario i would love to see more hockey here. But truth be told it does not matter to me, i would just like to see the game i like prosper. The ones in markets where it not sustaining and are losing money need to be moved, plain and simple. It is for the better of the league and the game.
I will admit that Balsille is brash, and pushy, he has stated his intent which is better than lying about wanting to move the franchise. He goes after what he wants. There is nothing wrong with that.
I understand your point. The NHL should and does decide the locations and owners who get franchises. I totally agree with that. And i agree that no one should think they can do what they want with an NHL franchise without approval by the NHL. Very much like your Tim Hortons.
But the thing I don't think you understand is that Balsille is following the law. He is not breaking any rules of the NHL because the NHL rules do not apply at this point. He has a offer to purchase a bankrupt company. That is all. This no longer has anything to do with the NHL making decisions for the franchise, the only person who decide what happens with the Pheonix Coyotes is a judge in Pheonix. it is whole different ballgame when you deal with Bankruptcy.(that was for Alex's analogy to MLB)
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 17:58:02
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Mr. Chop, I have to say that many of the things you said I agree with. However, there are a few that I don't.
The Bankrupcy Court definately will and should consider the NHL rules because it is more than the Laws involved. They not only have to protect the creditors but also the purchaser. I will come back to this in a second.
You are completely wrong about what happens to the Timmy's location if the owner is bankrupt. What happens is that if the business is sold to someone else, it's the assets sold. Perhaps the facility, the products inside, etc. Not the name. The name is and always will be owned by Tim Horton's. So let's talk about 2 situations. Firstly, someone buys the business but wants to put it into a different location. They need Timmy's corporate to say that's ok. They can't just move the Timmy's. Second sitation is the purchaser buys the business, stays in the same location, but does not follow the corporate rules. They are no longer part of the Tim Horton's corporation. They can be Billy Borton's or Jim Thorton's or what ever else they want. But they aren't Timmy's anymore and do not get the benefits of being part of Timmy's or get to sell their products.
Now, back to the bankrupcy court. If the purchase is conditional on the move of the team, but the movement of the team is the decision of the NHL, the court has the requirement to consider this in their judgement. As I said above, if the Courts agree to the offer and the team moves, what happens if the NHL Board of Governors does not recognize the moved team to be a franchise in the NHL?? Then Balsillie has a $212 million team without a league to play in. The judge does need to consider this and protect the purchaser to a certain degree as well. It has not even been decided if the judge has the authority to make the call not if Moyes had the ability to claim the bankrupcy. He very well could say that the offer is void because of the movement condition or that the NHL was in control of the team and only they can claim bankrupcy.
Ultimately, this precident (in my humble opinion) could be the potential down fall of the league. If the NHL does not hold decision making power over it's own affairs, it becomes open season for owners to do what ever they want when ever they want. Move the team, sell the team, fold the team, break the cap, anything. It's not the NHL's call, right? It's all a business and each team is ran any what the owner wants to, right??
If this goes through, expect the Dallas Team to be ready for Auction very soon. Their owner just defaulted on a $525 million loan. Atlanta's in trouble. Nashville is still not out of the woods. The Islanders are losing money and threatening to leave if they don't get a new arena(their owner has also gone on record as regretting buying the team). I sure hope that the fine people of Southern Ontario are able to support more than Balsillie's team, because more could be coming soon. According to the logic of many on here, simply move all the money losing teams out of the States into Canada. Get ready for the web site "Makeit19.ca" coming soon!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 22:56:21
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thank you beans, your arguements are true and virtually are the same as I was trying to make. In fact I believe we just made the same arguement using the Tim Hortons scenerio but with different words.
You have hit the nail right on the head, should precident be set then several franchises could concievably go down the same route. Could it be the downfall of the league? Highly unlikely, because every scenerio would require a capable purchaser wanting to relocate to a viable market. There are only so many markets available. And yes teams could potentially fold. This is what has Bettman so angry. It is out of his hands, exposing a loop hole in his plan.
Now should the NHL board of governers not recognize the new ownership then there is a whole other set litigation that both parties would have to pursue. This has the potential to take either a short time or a long time. The shorter the better.
We all must remember that to the owners in the NHL that this is a business. Just like any business when the money drys up, you close the doors. It can not be expected that the current owners in the NHL would keep running there own franchises and keep Pheonix afloat forever as well. That is what is being suggested if the NHL were the loan decider and rule maker. It just does not make any fiscal sense from any sort of business perspective. That is like throwing money out the car window as you drive along the trans canada highway.
As you point out, there are several franchises in trouble in the NHL. Is it Bettmans fault, not totally. Likely scenerio is owners throwing money around a little too much in other investments and then losing there shirts in the current economic downswing.
So will Balsille get the Coyotes. Likely a 50-50 chance. He will have to make some concessions in order to do it. One of those concessions could be a no relocation clause. If that happens then he would forgo his offer and wait for another opportunity. If he does get them, he will certainly have to do some fancy talkin to get on the right side of the NHL because they are not going to like what he did.
You and I have been down this road before on this topic, I know you are very strong with your opinions around this. I am not trying to tell you they are wrong. I am only trying to state the reality of this particular situation. It may not even play out this way but that is what the Balsille bid is all about, exposing this hole in the NHL regulations, taking Bettman out of the equation and landing himself a franchise. As you said, it is not the best way to go about it but I think its his only way and legally he is not doing anything wrong.
I have been away for a while, around people who did not know anything about hockey. It is always fun to get into a good disussion with you about hockey. Almost missed it you could say. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:26:05
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I think that this is actually a better thing for Balsillie if the Coyotes do not go to Hamilton. Reason being that he has proved over and over that the fan base is there. Eventually, the league owners do have to listen to that. I also think this is the first time that Bettman has even talked about a team in Hamilton and that it would happen through expansion if anything. So, Balsillie's dream is there, it's just what way he goes about doing it.
As my old grampa used to say, you'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar. If Balsillie can get on the side of a few of the more powerful owners (Mike Ilich, Rocky Wirtz, Jeremy Jacobs) or some of the group/corporate owners (Comcast-Spectacor, MSG, etc) it will do more for his cause than his loophole approach. Especially in the long term.
Eventually, the NHL will have to listen. I just don't like the dirty pool/loophole approach. In life, business, anything really, those will long term success, respect, and honor are those who walked through the front door, not those who creeped in the back door.
Enjoy your holiday Monday! |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/18/2009 : 10:14:53
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| i give up beans you have your mine set no amount of logic will change it i think you rae bettman going down with the ship water sputtering out of your mouth until inevitable. Now winnipeg is better option me think bettman protest too much. Seems finally he is willing to negoatiate which is all basille wants not bully not his way an oppurtuntity to get a franchise. Fact he tried to buy pittsburgh with league blessing deneied(bettman brought in additons to cobntact -Basille choice to walk away. 2 approached nhl buying franchise told not availble too many exixsting ones in trouble. I give up i could go on and one basically basille tried to get afranchise bettman or the owners dont want him to sink money into a losing franchise to keep it afloat after prev owner goes bankrupt. The problem with bettmans and your scenario is there is only so many suckers. Just think for one second maybe hockey cant work in phoenix 12yrs hasnt worked . Reinsdork doesnt want the team he doesnt (said so) read the article i suggested. NO one buys it because honestly what good business man buys a sinkhole. It goes under franchise revoked. Now anyone buying team is hesitant because nhl abandons its owners strong eating the weak.Other teams atlanta dallas goes under franchise values sink more owners want to bail cant unless unload teams far below market value. Banks call loans because teams value is less than the arena loans or charge higher rates if intersest therby forcing other teams into bankruptcy. Nhl is in trouble by your own numbers majority of teams therfore league shuts doors. Hall of fame articles go up for auction some billionaire in india buys up all the memorbilla dosent like mtl cdns so burns it. All this happens becuse Bettman and you insist on being right. Remember bettman tried to claim the nhl owns the stanley cup they dont it was donated to Canada by lord stanley nhl didndt exist. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 10:23:08
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Serious, the forum rules talk about puncuation and grammer. Please use them becuase it is very hard to follow you arguement.
Honestly, I have barely a vague idea about what you are saying. And again, I can not stress enough. Bettman has the support of the owners. If not, they would have not allowed him to pursue the legal action and he would not be the Commish for 16+ years.
And I don't agree with Bettman per se, I disagree with Balsillie working around the other 29 owners to muslce his way into a market. No other owner could put a team where ever they wanted, they always needed league support. Balsillie should be no different. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/18/2009 : 10:34:26
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| moyes lost 300 million. What would you have him do beans wait until he has to close his businss put thousands out of work put his family in hostel. Bankruptcy court is a legal option many peopkle have used it to get out from their debts. Basille is offering to help him walk away with pride and some value for his failed investment(he is from phoenix and just wanted to help his comm retain franchise. If it is up to you you just kick him to the curb if it is such a good franchise beans you and bettman should pony of 220 million and keep franchise in phoenix. Business people earned their money for the most part hard work long hours(not all them some loansharking bootlegging etc.)The older owners got their franchise as hobby new owners buy it as a business.So you and bettmans soloution is run owner out of money buy it back from for a pittance and then turn it over to another sucker sorry nhl is running out of suckers. Still dont get your defence of nhl on moral grounds research history of the nhl teams governors commisionars etc |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
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Guest4094
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 06:43:43
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Guest 4094 - I deleted two posts that were simply copy and paste jobs. If you have an argument, tell us your point of view . . . with at least an attempt at proper sentence structure and grammar, please.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/19/2009 : 07:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
I give up beans you have your mine set so no amount of logic will change it. I think you are bettman going down with the ship water sputtering out of your mouth until inevitable happens. Now word is winnipeg is the better option. I think bettman protests too much. Seems finally he is willing to negoatiate which is all basille wanted at the start (honest negotiating) It wasnt basilles choice to bully the Nhl he just wants an oppurtunitty in a free market to purchase a team. Fact is he tried to buy pittsburgh with league blessing but was denied(bettman brought in additons to contract at the last second )Basille chose to walk away which you yourself said you would too. Bettmans actions also embarassed one of the league stars (mario) by making him feel foolish as he thought they had a deal and announced it with the leagues blessing
2 Basille approached nhl about buying a franchise but was told none are available because too many exixsting ones are in trouble.
I give up I could go on and on basically basille tried to get a franchise but Bettman or the owners don't want him to have a new franchise. They prefer the staus quo and would like him to sink money into a losing franchise to keep it afloat.I beleive limiting an owners options to bankruptcy or selling your franchise for a lower offer is bullying.(ie telling owner who they can sell to, how much, and if they can move the team.
The problem with bettmans and your scenario is there is only so many suckers . Just think for one second maybe hockey cant work in phoenix (12yrs hasnt worked ). Reinsdorf doesnt want the team (he said so) read the article I suggested (it is quote from an actual person involved not a source). NO one buys it because honestly what good business man buys a sinkhole.
Are you suggesting that you let Phoenix go under and than revoke the franchise.Because now anyone buying team is hesitant because nhl abandons its owners (which is what it has done with moyes by telling him he has to take less than the highest offer) strong eating the weak.Last time I checked we live in a free market society and if basille wants to overpay he can. On a side note I dont beleive the judge can say anything about moving the team or not moving the team. All he can do is determine who can buy the team. If other teams like atlanta dallas go under franchise values sink more. More owners will want to bail out (as many have arena loans, business loans etc tied to their franchise value) but cant unless they unload teams far below market value. Banks will call loans because teams value is less than the arena loans or they will charge higher rates of intersest therby forcing other teams into bankruptcy. If moyes sells for less the value of nhl franchises go down. Basilles offer increase the value of Nhl team, thereby helping some owners get loans.(Many owners use their team as collateral for other business ventures. Banks are hesitant to lend money as it is so how do think they will react if their collateral is worthless.
Whether you or bettman want to admit it the nhl is in trouble. Accordingto your numbers majority of teams are in trouble therefore the league wil shuts its doors. The result of which will be the Nhl will reoganise and sell its assets (Hall of fame articles go up for auction some billionaire in india buys up all the memorbilla dosent like mtl cdns so he burns it). All this happens becuse Bettman and you insist on being right.
I am not suggestiong teams move willy nilly (this is not the case with phoenix) but on a case by case basis. Past actions by bettman don't support yours or his arguements. Minnesota left for dallas on their own all sports leagues have moved teams. The only difference between Minnesota and Phoenix is the Minn. owner gave Bettman heads up. It wasn't bettmans choice they went to dallas he negoatited.
Agree or disagree but fact is teams have moved with nhls blessing which is a precedent (proper spelling). Basille is just trying to force Bettman to bargaining table. We have laws and your Nhl and Basille have to abide by them which is why the courts will now decide. Which is my biggest problem with your arguement you think that the 30 nhl owners (many of them incompetent as they spend themselves out of business- even salary cap can't save them) can decide whats best for the Phoenix as opposed to 1000 yr old laws and an unbiased arbitrator. Laws I might add apply to you me and every business out there including Tim Hortons.
I hope my grammer is more readable and apoolgize for the previous post. I care for hockey fo which the nhl is caretaker(unfortunaely) of OUR great game.
Remember bettman during the strike tried to claim the nhl owns the stanley cup they don't it was donated to Canada by lord stanley the nhl didndt exist at the time.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 09:14:31
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Here's a interesting story, posted on NHL.com. Not only do the other leagues support the NHL, but they have filed statements with the court stating this as well.
Guess I am not the only moron in North America.
The NFL, Major League Baseball and the NBA have lined up in support of the NHL's court fight to block the sale of the Phoenix Coyotes and move to southern Canada. The other major sports leagues filed statements in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on Monday in support of the NHL.
All three statements ask the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to "respect the National Hockey League's rules and procedures regarding ownership transfer and relocation."
The statements of baseball and the NBA ask that the court "not set precedent that could severely disrupt the business of professional hockey," baseball, basketball and other major league sports.
The NFL statement had similar wording, asking the court to avoid a "precedent that has the potential to undermine or disrupt the business of professional hockey, football or other major league sports."
A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday before Judge Redfield Baum in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on the NHL's motion to have the case thrown out. |
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Guest5934
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Posted - 05/19/2009 : 10:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's a interesting story, posted on NHL.com. Not only do the other leagues support the NHL, but they have filed statements with the court stating this as well.
Guess I am not the only moron in North America.
The NFL, Major League Baseball and the NBA have lined up in support of the NHL's court fight to block the sale of the Phoenix Coyotes and move to southern Canada. The other major sports leagues filed statements in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on Monday in support of the NHL.
All three statements ask the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to "respect the National Hockey League's rules and procedures regarding ownership transfer and relocation."
The statements of baseball and the NBA ask that the court "not set precedent that could severely disrupt the business of professional hockey," baseball, basketball and other major league sports.
The NFL statement had similar wording, asking the court to avoid a "precedent that has the potential to undermine or disrupt the business of professional hockey, football or other major league sports."
A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday before Judge Redfield Baum in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on the NHL's motion to have the case thrown out.
I wonder if anybody asked the other leagues players associations. I believe the NHL player's association is siding with Basillie. The press has been quick to say the league is against the move and I want people to know it is just the NHL ownership group not the Entire League.
Moving a money losing team in a profitable market will increase revenue, thereby increasing salarie cap, thereby increasing salaries. By keeping the Yotes in Phoenix, Bettman and the ownership group have effectively lowering players salaries.
Should the Thrashers, Islanders, Preds and Hurricane be able to relocate? Yes. I think the NHL should be forced to offer up relocation options to prospective owners. More than one option and let the relocating owner's decide. If the NHL ownership group offer some type of relocation agreement with Basillie (ie Winnipeg, Hamilton) we may yet see a make it 7 (or 8) happen soon. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/19/2009 : 11:04:15
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| No one is calling anyone names. But surprise surprise other leagues agree with nhl I am talking from a fans perspective not owner. Let someone independent decide does nba nfl or mlb have a unbiased opinion and all three leagues HAVE permitted teams to move. It proves nothing or supports your arguement in anyway. Baseball and nfl have serious steroid issues in which (not to get off topic but it is relevant since you brought them into it) they only addressed after courts got involved. If you left them to run their own league without outside interference as you call it then how many players would be dropping dead.They cant even follow their own rules as steroids have been banned in baseball since 70s. Which I think proves my point that they are not above the law. Comparisons to other businesses isn't valid because the major league teams are currently exempt from anti trust legislation. But a word to the wise congress has already threatened once to remove their antitrust (so baseball would comply with steroid testing) so If I was bettman, selig et al I would watch my step. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/19/2009 : 11:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's a interesting story, posted on NHL.com. Not only do the other leagues support the NHL, but they have filed statements with the court stating this as well.
Guess I am not the only moron in North America.
The NFL, Major League Baseball and the NBA have lined up in support of the NHL's court fight to block the sale of the Phoenix Coyotes and move to southern Canada. The other major sports leagues filed statements in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on Monday in support of the NHL.
All three statements ask the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to "respect the National Hockey League's rules and procedures regarding ownership transfer and relocation."
The statements of baseball and the NBA ask that the court "not set precedent that could severely disrupt the business of professional hockey," baseball, basketball and other major league sports.
The NFL statement had similar wording, asking the court to avoid a "precedent that has the potential to undermine or disrupt the business of professional hockey, football or other major league sports."
A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday before Judge Redfield Baum in U.S. Bankruptcy Court on the NHL's motion to have the case thrown out.
NHL dot com You mean gary Bettman kidding right good source |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 11:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
No one is calling anyone names. But surprise surprise other leagues agree with nhl I am talking from a fans perspective not owner. Let someone independent decide does nba nfl or mlb have a unbiased opinion and all three leagues HAVE permitted teams to move. It proves nothing or supports your arguement in anyway. Baseball and nfl have serious steroid issues in which (not to get off topic but it is relevant since you brought them into it) they only addressed after courts got involved. If you left them to run their own league without outside interference as you call it then how many players would be dropping dead.They cant even follow their own rules as steroids have been banned in baseball since 70s. Which I think proves my point that they are not above the law. Comparisons to other businesses isn't valid because the major league teams are currently exempt from anti trust legislation. But a word to the wise congress has already threatened once to remove their antitrust (so baseball would comply with steroid testing) so If I was bettman, selig et al I would watch my step.
You are right, you went completely off topic. And your thoughts are completely irrelevant to this issue. If you re-read the story from nhl.com, it clearly states that all three league are in agreement that the decisions on locations of franchises is that of the respective league and that setting this precedent could have a serious negative impact on more than just the NHL.
That has nothing to do with steroids in baseball. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/19/2009 : 12:36:16
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I read that little snippet from the Associated Press in the Winnipeg Free Press this morning, Beans. The sports writers here are obviously whipping up support for a bid to move the Coyotes back to Winnipeg, citing Bettman:
"I responded that it's a league opportunity, the building (Copps Coliseum is too old etc. and, frankly, if this team had to move it should first be offered to Winnipeg."
...to which the author adds...
"Note that Bettman did not qualify the latter statement with a 'if we have to move to Canada.'"
You touched on the prospective move to Winnipeg earlier but didn't really go in-depth. If the board of governors nixes the move to Hamilton, what are your thoughts on the viability of a move to Winnipeg (assuming Balsillie doesn't revise his offer to stipulate a move to Canada, as opposed to specifically Southern Ontario)?
The current owner of the Manitoba Moose would likely be able to beat Reinsdorf's offer, but probably wouldn't be able to match Balsillie's offer. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 12:47:32
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I would support any Canadian, American, Mexican, or any other NHL location where the NHL's and Board of Governor's support is given. I will never support a team, regardless of location, that is done outside of the process. It's not a good thing for anyone in the long term.
To answer the question, do I think a team in Winnipeg would be a good thing? I don't really know. The stadium is pretty small, although it is brand new. They always have had rabid hockey fans, but is there enough corporate dollars?? Again, I don't know. From my limited knowledge, Winnipeg is just what it is. Doesn't really grow, doesn't really shrink. If it didn't work before will it work now?? Unless there is an owner with a decent piece in their wallet that is willing to financially support a losing team for a period of time I personally think that history would repeat itself and they would eventually be in trouble. But I can not stress enough, I do not have a ton of knowledge of Winnipeg today. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 14:29:36
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Do you think Bettman is trying to lightly say "if you want Winnipeg we would back your offer to purchase" to Basillie. If Basillie moves them to Winnipeg like the commisionaire is "suggesting" and the NHL does not object to the bankruptcy proceedings, the lease could be broken with Glendale if the judge rules in favour of Moyers. If the NHL objects they devalue all of the 30 franchise's and loses a prospective owner who in my opinion will be good for the sport.
I agree picking a fight with other NHL owners is not the greatest way to get a franchise. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 14:51:10
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Well, I read what has been posted already and it sounds like -1 for the NHL. Although the judge stated he would not make a decision today, it appears the judge is leading towards the NHL was NOT in control of the team. However, this is only one of the many battles that has to be decided. Doesn't look like the judge even commented on if the offer will be honored with the relocation condition.
On another note, it's wierd how things like this bring people out of the wood work. Here is a report stating there is yet another group interested in buying the team and keeping them in Phoenix. If this is true, not great on Balsillie's shot. Especially since one of the people involved is a minority owner(or maybe a former minority owner) of the team.
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=1609775
Another article I read stated for Balsillie to get everything he wants, he needs 23 of the 29 owners to agree to the purchase and 16 of the 29 to relocate the team.
Things are heating up and getting interesting.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 16:22:31
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| Hey Bean's, I know your good at this stuff. I have asked a couple of times but I cant find out who the potential buyer was, for the entire NHL, during the lockout season? Was it Basillie? Is that why the owners do not want to deal with him? |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 17:26:25
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The other major sports leagues obviously have to throw support behind the NHL because of the potential impact to there own franchises.
The judge today did not give indication one way or the other, except to say he has a duty by law to ensure the creditors (not in those words). To this point I do not see 1 for the NHL. I still see a legal proceedings like it or not that is being done lawfully and not behind anyones back. It is very public. Lets put it this way, and Beans you will have to admit this to be true if it turns out this way, if Moyes if proved to be still be the rightful owner and in control of the Coyotes and NHL has been lying then who is it really that is trying to pull a fast one, that would be Mr. Bettman. The truth is yet to be determined.
I will stand up for your point that the NHL should be the sole body for regulating franchises, and franchise locations. Unfortunately they legally cannot force an owner to lose money year after year because they are to stubborn to admit failure to develop their plan of hockey in the desert. This is where we are today, legally who is right and who is wrong. I know what the law says, many have read it in many articles pasted into this forum, question is who is the liar trying to prevent legal proceedings and justice to the people who have invested millions into a losing franchise, Moyes or Bettman. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 05/19/2009 17:27:39 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 10:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Hey Bean's, I know your good at this stuff. I have asked a couple of times but I cant find out who the potential buyer was, for the entire NHL, during the lockout season? Was it Basillie? Is that why the owners do not want to deal with him?
Here's a link. It was a group out of Boston, and I don't see Balsillie involved at all.
Interesting note in here. Just 5 short years ago, Edmonton had the lowest value of all the teams in the league. Last year they sold more than triple the value. I never would have guessed it was that much.
http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3733996/c_9746131 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 10:26:09
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Mr. Chop, there are a few things that I must comment on.
The League (ie, Bettman) are not saying that Phoenix can not be sold and that Moyes has to keep the team and lose money. That is the furthest thing from the truth. The NHL is simply fighting for their right, as a League, to retain their power over where teams are located. How they do it is irrelevant. If it's the ownership thing or any other legal angle they take, it's the point that they control the team location.
And as far as who owns the team and who doesn't, I personally don't believe anyone is lying. Back in November, Moyes signed two proxy agreements. In Moyes' perspective, the proxy agreements were handing over voting rights only for the Team to the NHL. Bettman's persepective is that Moyes signed over all rights to the team. It's not who is lying or not lying, it's who's perspective the legal community will recognize.
Finally, I do not support Bettman. I do not support Moyes. And I do not support Balsillie. I support an NHL who has control over the franchises and league. Honestly, they are all crooks and liars to a certain degree. That's like most legal proceedings. 99% of the time, there is one side of the story, the other side of the story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 10:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Hey Bean's, I know your good at this stuff. I have asked a couple of times but I cant find out who the potential buyer was, for the entire NHL, during the lockout season? Was it Basillie? Is that why the owners do not want to deal with him?
Here's a link. It was a group out of Boston, and I don't see Balsillie involved at all.
Interesting note in here. Just 5 short years ago, Edmonton had the lowest value of all the teams in the league. Last year they sold more than triple the value. I never would have guessed it was that much.
http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3733996/c_9746131
Thanks I could not find that anywhere. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:15:20
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I just read an interesting article that may sway me against Basillie's offer, if information is correct.
http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/16/what-southern-ontario-means-and-why-losing-the-sabres-could-crush-the-nhl/
I did not realize Hamilton was within 45 miles of Buffalo or that Buffalo was roughly the same size as Hamilton. I can see why the NHL is objecting, with such a struggling market like Buffalo within the franchise radius. Buffalo draws certain similarities to what is going on in New York. Nobody is suggesting that the 2 teams in New York market is saturated and yet, one team is currently in the black and the other is in the red.
Maybe with Toronto, Buffalo, Ottawa the southern Ontario resident's are not as unserved as previously thought.
Makes a great arguement to bring the Yotes back to Winnipeg. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/20/2009 : 15:54:21
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I just leafed through the 'Unserved Market' thread that Slozo and Beans were posting on as well, and he definitely makes some good points about the viability of the MTS Centre in Winnipeg being roughly suitable for an NHL team. His points are bang on:
[quote]While I'm here I might as well add to the comment about the MTS Centre being too small. The arena seats over 15,000, and with some modifications could seat a bit more (for all you who have visited it I'm thinking the John Labatt Lounge could be converted to regular seating). Some American teams give away between 1,000 and 2,000 free tickets per game, with actual paid attendance being less than 10,000, but these markets are still considered viable. Also good to note that the MTS Centre is the busiest arenas in North America on a yearly basis (9th I think)*, so the ownership group that owns the Moose and the arena do quite well.[quote]
*This is including musical acts and other arena-based events.
He also talks about how there are 50 corporate boxes available (more than the previous arena) which draws more corporate dollars and support, something that the Jets lacked in the early 90's. It's a nice arena, all-in-all. I go to watch Moose games fairly often, and my office building is actually connected to it via skywalk. It's also the only arena I've ever been to where you can get perogies at intermission! :)
This probably isn't the right thread to talk about it, but the murmurs are growing here as more and more articles are released favouring Winnipeg as the new franchise target. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 21:25:26
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Well, round one is being spun as a "draw", but make no mistake:
The NHL lost the first one. There are many more, but the Balsillie train should be (and is) picking up steam.
The NHL declared that it would be a "slam dunk" in their favour after this first hearing, and it was anything but, as the judge ruled . . . well, he didn't rule - he passed it on to give it time, knowing the full weight of the matter as the other pro sports leagues weighed in as well with support for the NHL. Now it goes to mediation, where it will surely fail, and the judge will just have a longer time to decide. Creditors rights versus league rights, basically . . . how the hell did the NHL lawyers misjudge this thing so badly?!?
The website Balsillie started is getting to be huge, it's over a 100,000 names already, and now they have even more time to advertise and whip the crowd up. Pressure will come to a head of steam that will whistle loudly by the time the gavel comes down . . .
. . . this is better than the OJ trial! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 03:53:53
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Don't be surprised in Bettman pulls some weasel deal with Moyes during the Mediation just to screw over Balsille again. Thats what Bettman does, weasel, he sounds like a weasel everytime he opens his mouth. I hope the judge follows the law and allows Balsille bid but says the board of governers gets to decide the relocation. I bet they get the 16 votes for it.
I do not think anyone is winning or losing yet in this battle. I certainly did not look good for Bettman when the judge did not declare them the owner, pretty much called them liars and all 700 pages of filings bulls***. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 06:39:03
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Well, you said it better than I, Porkchop - no one really won per se, but Bettman definitely has egg on his face.
Bettman already has pulled out a weaselly (I know, not a word) deal, he's gotten Reisendorf to come out of nowhere for him so that there was SOME other option other than the Balsillie deal. Listening to Bob McCowan last evening, he speculated that Reisendorf must have owed him something from the past, and that clearly seems to be the case, as it doesn't make sense (business wise, interest-wise) for him really.
And I also listened to Balsillie on that same show last night, and one thing struck me: the media has been flat out LYING up till now. Balsillie is calm, well spoken, and deferential. He didn't make even one dig at Bettman, which impressed me. He certainly had the optimism of someone who is passionate about the game of hockey, but in no way did he seem brash, aggressive, etc - everything the NHL is trying their hardest to portray him as. Balsillie to me comes off as an honest, self-made businessman.
Meanwhile, I listen to Bettman, and he usually starts lying around the first sentence . . . and most people see that right away. He states things in ways that portray the situation as he would like it, not how it is. He always endeavours to portray whoever disagrees with him as having no grounds for argument, and by concentrating on that of course he only avoids whatever the core issue is. He comes off as a slimy politician.
I have suddenly realised why the NHL board of governors (and Bettman, who represents them) are angry at Balsillie. He is upsetting the applecart for sure, but not for the stated reasons the NHL is giving. He is not playing by the unstated, shadowy rules that these rich owners like, complete with backroom deals, private agreements, perhaps even secret financial pay-offs. Balsillie has the nerve to actually come in here and be open, transparent, and has this strange idea that he can conduct a business transaction following the prescribed rules.
I have now firmly made up my mind that, whatever the result of this situation, that Balsillie is indeed the righteous one, and Bettman is the one not following procedure and protocol.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 17:15:41
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| Bingo Slozo, should this whole Coyotes thing go down the way 99% of hockey fans want it to (except Beans, just kidding) then I don't think the board of governers will keep Bettman around. Why is that, you ask. Simple, just like Slozo said, this is about money and getting what you want, the current owners and Bettmans game could get exposed during this whole thing. If that happens Bettman is done. I will not go as far to say Balsille is totally honest but I think he learned something in his first and second go round, now he is going to show the hockey world all about it. |
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Guest0836
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Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
... He states things in ways that portray the situation as he would like it, not how it is. He always endeavours to portray whoever disagrees with him as having no grounds for argument, and by concentrating on that of course he only avoids whatever the core issue is.
Sounds like a fan of a certain Canadian NHL team that wears blue and white uniforms. 
Sorry couldn't help myself. Back to your long discussions. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:06:09
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Rquote]Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4094
No one is calling anyone names. But surprise surprise other leagues agree with nhl I am talking from a fans perspective not owner. Let someone independent decide does nba nfl or mlb have a unbiased opinion and all three leagues HAVE permitted teams to move. It proves nothing or supports your arguement in anyway. Baseball and nfl have serious steroid issues in which (not to get off topic but it is relevant since you brought them into it) they only addressed after courts got involved. If you left them to run their own league without outside interference as you call it then how many players would be dropping dead.They cant even follow their own rules as steroids have been banned in baseball since 70s. Which I think proves my point that they are not above the law. Comparisons to other businesses isn't valid because the major league teams are currently exempt from anti trust legislation. But a word to the wise congress has already threatened once to remove their antitrust (so baseball would comply with steroid testing) so If I was bettman, selig et al I would watch my step.
You are right, you went completely off topic. And your thoughts are completely irrelevant to this issue. If you re-read the story from nhl.com, it clearly states that all three league are in agreement that the decisions on locations of franchises is that of the respective league and that setting this precedent could have a serious negative impact on more than just the NHL.
That has nothing to do with steroids in baseball.
[/quote]Read my post again My Point Was the Courts will Decide, not the Nhl and your post on three leagues agreeing is irrelevant because they have no say in the matter. And all three have allowed teams to move (precedent)
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 06:56:29
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You hit the nail on the head. It is the league that makes the decision of a franchise moving. And I know the other leagues don't make the decision, but it does give the judge something else to think about.
I also read on the ticker last night that there are a few US Congressmen from NY that are put statements into the court in Arizona that a move to Hamilton will almost certainly spell the end of the franchise in Buffalo.
Again, they don't make the decision either, but it's influence. |
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Guest7113
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Posted - 05/22/2009 : 11:35:38
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quote:
Read my post again My Point Was the Courts will Decide, not the Nhl and your post on three leagues agreeing is irrelevant because they have no say in the matter.
They do have a say in the matter because they would be affected by the potential outcome. You're right in saying that it's not their decision, but if they can demonstrate that the precedent set by the judge's decision would impact them financially, the judge would be an idiot not to consider their statements. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 05:31:03
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UPDATE!
Thursday, May 28, 2009 - Jim Balsillie sends out another update to the people who signed up to his "make it seven" website, and that included myself. Copied and pasted from my e-mail:
Dear Hockey Fans,
I am writing to thank you again for your support and update you on the latest in our "full speed ahead" drive to bring a seventh NHL franchise to Canada.
Yesterday, Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes filed documents in court confirming his receipt of our offer to purchase the team for US$212.5 million, that the offer expires June 30, 2009 and that it is conditional upon moving the team to southern Ontario. We learned that the court has moved up its date to hear arguments on the question of relocation to June 9th and Judge Baum has said he will rule on this issue shortly after. If he rules the team can be relocated, the Judge has also indicated he will move the date of the auction we have asked for up to June 22nd.
We have maintained from the beginning that we need to be in control of the team by then to know if we can move it this year, or if we have to keep it in Glendale for another year and then move it to its new home, Copps Coliseum, where we have secured the rights to a long-term lease.
We are moving ahead. In the days ahead, I will have more exciting details to share with you about bringing this team to Canada.
In the meantime, we need our voices to be heard. Currently, we have over 130,000 people signed up www.makeitseven.ca and we need to reach out to hockey lovers throughout Canada and the world to expand our movement. If each of you were able to get one friend to sign up, we could mobilize over a quarter of a million people in an online movement.
Click here if you wish to utilize our "Tell A Friend" tool to reach out to your own circle of influence and let our voice be heard.
Jim
Jim Balsillie
As an aside, to all the people who seem to think Jim Balsillie is operating outside the rules in some way, or missing something in the process - please point out the specific nhl rule and cite it, please.
The only one who has not been following the rules is Bettman and the NHL . . . and they are pissed that some rich guy with a no-quit attitude is calling them on it. Big business (ie: the real money in sports - the NFL and MLB and NBA) might still win by ensuring the judge makes the ruling they want, but anyone who has followed historical court rulings will know that it has nothing to do with right or wrong; the only thing that matters is how thick is your wallet, and much pressure can you apply.
It's not often that a billionaire can be looked at as the underdog fighting big business, but that is the case here.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Balsillie to buy the Phoenix Coyotes? 
