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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2009 : 07:07:28
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Been on the road for a few days, so I missed my chance to rebute many posts, but I will try to answer various things here.
1) Someone asked if I would have Avery on the Oilers. Obviously, if I could some how see the future, this would be far easier. However, he's still worth the risk. Some can argue that he can lose a game as fast as he can win a game and they would be right. However, on top of his game, he is not only the best agitator in the league but he IS a legitimate top 6 forward talant on any team in the NHL. People who disagree with that are not seeing his on-ice performance but only his off ice performance. To answer your question, I definately would take Avery onto the Oilers line up. In a heartbeat without any thought what so ever. I can alway drop him if he turns the wrong way. But as I said, the best instigator in the league who can play top 6, that is worth a lot in this game we call hockey.
2) I stand by my "use your noggin" statement. Emphatically. People's arguement towards the Rangers are "it will happen, wait and see" or "they did this or that in the past but it won't continue". Face the facts. The top 4 defense in New York match up with all but the elite top 5 groups of defensemen in the NHL. They have a legitimate 7+ forwards with the ability to score 20+ goals. They have speed, grit, and toughness. They have a world class goalie. That is a recipie for success in any hockey league in the world. Sure, an injury could occur, but that could happen to any team. We will just have to wait and see, but I would not be surprised to see New York with home ice in the playoffs.
3) Markov is soft??? Seriously, that quote itself tells me so much about people's thinking.
4) How many Leaf defensemen have a 40+ point season? Combined how many 40+ point seasons are with the Leafs? How many (+) seasons??? I mean, please. Compare the offensive and defensive production for the 2 groups and it's not even close. Paul Mara, who many consider the #4 or #5 defensemen for Montreal has been more productive player than all the Leafs defensemen save Kaberle.
5) Beachemin over Spacek??? Long term, maybe, Short term, not on your life. And short term is even a tough choice. Spacek is a legitimate 30-40 point scorer. That's Beachemin's highest production and he did that on a Stanley Cup winning team.
As many of you know, I am not the biggest Leaf fan and never will be. As much as Leaf fans drive me nuts some times, you gotta love'em. Their passion and dedication could be the biggest in all of sport. However, try to look at things objectively for a second. Not with what might happen or what you want to happen, but what has actually happened and what is likely to happen.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 08/20/2009 07:24:06 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 10:53:30
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Beans....i guess that's why opinions are so great. Personally, i wouldn't want Avery anywhere near to the Canucks roster. Funny though, a few years ago, i'd have wanted him, i just simply tired of his bs much too quickly. The guy is a proven commodity, BUT also a proven disease to teams! He's got some serious issues and if i were running a team, i wouldn't want anything to do with him. In my mind, he's MAYBE a top 6 forward on a weak offensive team, and that's barely.
As for the "use your noggin" comment...i understand what you mean but let's face it, at this point, how a team's gonna do is opinion only. I was more pointing out that Gabby doesn't have the highest ppg for the past 3 years. There are 5-10 guys with higher or very similar numbers all of who have played far more games and bring more value to their teams. I really don't know if i'd want him at that price with the injury history involved. I'll continue to say this, he could be a 100 pt guy, but he could be 20-40 just as quick.....
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 10:56:36
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Markov doesnt scare anybody and doesnt hit. Maybe soft isnt the right word, but sure as hell isnt hard as f***
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 11:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Markov doesnt scare anybody and doesnt hit. Maybe soft isnt the right word, but sure as hell isnt hard as f***
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
I think the prob here is "soft" sounds negative, as though his being soft hurts his game. He may not be a Phaneuf or Stevens type D-man but the fact he isn't one of the bigger body checkers is not necessarily a negative to his game. I think that's where the argument is coming from. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 11:15:11
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Ok lets strighten this out. I already stated earlier that I dont think that Markov is really soft, i was just usuing the logic that, some seem to think that Kaberle is soft, therefore so is Markov. To me (imo) they are similar players. Puck moving defenceman, who arent overly physical. I dont mean he is going to cry like a baby everytime he has to go into the corners. Hes just not intimidating.
Spacek is nearing the end of his career. He may be productive this year, but moving forward (like you stated beans) Beauchimen will be a better signing when the contracts are over. Remember, Gainey is aiming for next year, burke is going long term. That is why its pretty pointless to compare the two in the first place...
Comparing stats of each dman on the team doesnt tell the whole story. Stats are only a part of it. Going into the corners in the maple leafs zone this year is going to be like going over the top in WW1. You are going to get f***ed up.
Montreal's d doesnt seem like they are going to scare or hurt anyone.. Paul Mara looks pretty scary with that playoff beard and he would be the main guy to dish out punishment. Gill doesnt play tough AT ALL. Georges? nope. Markov is an all star and he doesnt really need to try and kill guys to be effective. Spacek is reliable but again, nobody is crossing their fingers hoping they'll still be alive while they cross the habs blueline. Hamrlik is lucky he can still skate. The guy spends most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who just blew past him now.
They are 2 different types of bluelines. The habs are more offence oriented, with 2 solid stay at home D (Mara and Gill the pylon) while the leafs are looking to have 5 guys who will try to end your season, and Kaberle.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 08/20/2009 11:23:33 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 12:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Hamrlik is lucky he can still skate. The guy spends most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who just blew past him now.
Have a look at the top five shot blockers from last season:
1 Zbynek Michalek PHX D - 82 GP 271 Blocked Shots
2 Brett Clark COL D - 76 GP 238 Blocked Shots
3 Greg Zanon NSH D - 82 GP 237 Blocked Shots
4 Mike Komisarek MTL D - 66 GP 207 Blocked Shots
5 Roman Hamrlik MTL D - 81 GP 195 Blocked Shots
First of all, it wasn't just Komisarek blocking shots for the Habs. Yeah, he played 15 less games and would have had even more blocks if he had played those games but i'd say Hamrlik is prob overlooked in this category.
Second, Matt, what i'm wondering is this, your comment about him either "spending most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who blew past him"? Well, let's look at his GP stats. Over the past 10 years, he's played 70+ games in 9 of the 10 years. 7 of those 9, he played 75+ games? I guess you must be implying that he simply "chases guys who blew by him", no? Cuz he certainly doesn't seem to spend a lot of time on the IR?
Here's a good site if you wanna check some stats, especially the defensive stuff.... http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20092ALLDADAll&sort=blockedShots&viewName=rtssPlayerStats
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 12:47:50
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Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 08/20/2009 12:56:03 |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 15:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Heres the thing Matt, Markov and Kaberle ARE both good puck moving defencemen and they both skate well and both have good hard shots. But just because they share these traits doesn't mean Kaberle's softness tranfers over to Markov. Thats just stupidly used logic. Markov DOES hit hard, DOES compete hard in the corners and if you asked 100 NHL forwards who they feared most between Kaberle and Markov, ALL of them would say Markov. In fact, most of them would say its no contest with Markov playing a way more gritty, physical game than Kaberle. Saying Markov is soft or a similar player to Kaberle when it comes to toughness is like comparing Grabo to Gretzky. Its just plain ignorance. Watch some hockey and learn something, dude. Your comments tend to be shoot first, and ask questions later. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 15:17:08
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Oh btw, Gorges does hit, does drop the gloves, does block shots and your ignorance when it comes to any other team than the Leafs is laughable.
Who is Z. Michalek? Really? Watch some hockey dude. Maybe you'll learn something. I take it by your comments that you are 15 or 16 years old? |
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Guest6722
( )
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Posted - 08/20/2009 : 20:36:20
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anyone that doesn't know who Zbynek Michalek is and thinks Markov is soft is......
A 15 year old kid who watches 10 games a year of his own team and falls asleep within the 1st period saying its too boring and claims to know everything by backing it up with "I play AAA hockey" |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 21:29:07
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| I didn't know hitting wins games and scores goals? Hmm, who knew? Look for the Habs speedy forwards to put their dangle on past TO this season. Can't argue with facts, also watch the Leafs have a horrific PK and will be shorthanded far too much to even compete most nights. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 22:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
I didn't know hitting wins games and scores goals? Hmm, who knew? Look for the Habs speedy forwards to put their dangle on past TO this season. Can't argue with facts, also watch the Leafs have a horrific PK and will be shorthanded far too much to even compete most nights.
I acutally think the Leafs PK will be good. We know what their D is like and they have hard working, speedy forwards. Their PP can't be good though. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 10:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Been on the road for a few days, so I missed my chance to rebute many posts, but I will try to answer various things here.
1) Someone asked if I would have Avery on the Oilers. Obviously, if I could some how see the future, this would be far easier. However, he's still worth the risk. Some can argue that he can lose a game as fast as he can win a game and they would be right. However, on top of his game, he is not only the best agitator in the league but he IS a legitimate top 6 forward talant on any team in the NHL. People who disagree with that are not seeing his on-ice performance but only his off ice performance. To answer your question, I definately would take Avery onto the Oilers line up. In a heartbeat without any thought what so ever. I can alway drop him if he turns the wrong way. But as I said, the best instigator in the league who can play top 6, that is worth a lot in this game we call hockey.
2) I stand by my "use your noggin" statement. Emphatically. People's arguement towards the Rangers are "it will happen, wait and see" or "they did this or that in the past but it won't continue". Face the facts. The top 4 defense in New York match up with all but the elite top 5 groups of defensemen in the NHL. They have a legitimate 7+ forwards with the ability to score 20+ goals. They have speed, grit, and toughness. They have a world class goalie. That is a recipie for success in any hockey league in the world. Sure, an injury could occur, but that could happen to any team. We will just have to wait and see, but I would not be surprised to see New York with home ice in the playoffs.
3) Markov is soft??? Seriously, that quote itself tells me so much about people's thinking.
4) How many Leaf defensemen have a 40+ point season? Combined how many 40+ point seasons are with the Leafs? How many (+) seasons??? I mean, please. Compare the offensive and defensive production for the 2 groups and it's not even close. Paul Mara, who many consider the #4 or #5 defensemen for Montreal has been more productive player than all the Leafs defensemen save Kaberle.
5) Beachemin over Spacek??? Long term, maybe, Short term, not on your life. And short term is even a tough choice. Spacek is a legitimate 30-40 point scorer. That's Beachemin's highest production and he did that on a Stanley Cup winning team.
As many of you know, I am not the biggest Leaf fan and never will be. As much as Leaf fans drive me nuts some times, you gotta love'em. Their passion and dedication could be the biggest in all of sport. However, try to look at things objectively for a second. Not with what might happen or what you want to happen, but what has actually happened and what is likely to happen.
Beans, as far as being impartial, I couldn't really give a damn about the Rangers, unless they are competing with the Habs for one of the last playoff spots. I actually think its you that needs to use your noggin, and perhaps take the blinders off. You say they have many players who could get 20 goals? That may be true, but I stand by what I said: many of those same players will just as likely get you 10.
Avery a top 6 forward on a normal team? Not likely. He has some skill and is a great 3rd line forward, but as far as a 2nd line forward? Maybe on Phoenix the Islanders and of course the Rangers.
Their top four match up well to all but the top 5 teams? You've gone completely bonkers. Last year: Redden (-5), Giriardi (-14), Rozsival (-7) and Staal (-7). Top point getter? Rozsival with 30. Redden and him\s 8M salary produced all of 26 points. Perhaps you have heard of the bitching going on about the overpaid Redden and Rozsival made 7M? Ridiculous. I don't think you're giving Lundquist enough credit for bailing these turkeys out. As far as Prospal goes, I see that as kind of a wash with losing Zherdev, and actually Zherdev had more points last year.
I do agree with the rest of your post however. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 10:23:33
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Redneck - so refreshing to get an honest, and logical hockey comment from a Habs fan about the Leafs. Seriously, welcome to this site!
I agree 100% with your assessment, the Leafs PK (which was one of the absolute worst last season) will have (ok, should have) the biggest turnaround of any team. It's one of coach Wilson's specialties, and he has the defencemen now to perform, and it will be stressed for sure considering the tougher make-up of the team now and to come later.
One of the weaknesses might be the powerplay for the Leafs (with the roster they have right now), and on some nights, they just won't have the game-breaker to put them over the top for a win, you are right about that. Still, despite their uninspiring line-up, the Leafs were middle of the pack last year in power play goals, tied for 17th with the Stanley Cup champion Penguins. 16th in power play percentage last year . . . translates into what for this year? No Antropov like they had for most of last year, but . . . I don't see this as a back-breaking thing for the Leafs.
The key thing for me is penalty kill, which is why Primeau was picked up, and which is clearly strengthened by the upgrade in D. That, and keeping third period leads, at which I believe the Leafs were one of the worst teams in the the league.
I'll have to comment on Montreal's weaknesses later, no time now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 09:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Redneck - so refreshing to get an honest, and logical hockey comment from a Habs fan about the Leafs. Seriously, welcome to this site!
I agree 100% with your assessment, the Leafs PK (which was one of the absolute worst last season) will have (ok, should have) the biggest turnaround of any team. It's one of coach Wilson's specialties, and he has the defencemen now to perform, and it will be stressed for sure considering the tougher make-up of the team now and to come later.
One of the weaknesses might be the powerplay for the Leafs (with the roster they have right now), and on some nights, they just won't have the game-breaker to put them over the top for a win, you are right about that. Still, despite their uninspiring line-up, the Leafs were middle of the pack last year in power play goals, tied for 17th with the Stanley Cup champion Penguins. 16th in power play percentage last year . . . translates into what for this year? No Antropov like they had for most of last year, but . . . I don't see this as a back-breaking thing for the Leafs.
The key thing for me is penalty kill, which is why Primeau was picked up, and which is clearly strengthened by the upgrade in D. That, and keeping third period leads, at which I believe the Leafs were one of the worst teams in the the league.
I'll have to comment on Montreal's weaknesses later, no time now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
It is going to be hard to have a good penalty kill when your taking 7-8 a night, especially when it is your 'best' penalty killers taking the penalties. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 10:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Heres the thing Matt, Markov and Kaberle ARE both good puck moving defencemen and they both skate well and both have good hard shots. But just because they share these traits doesn't mean Kaberle's softness tranfers over to Markov. Thats just stupidly used logic. Markov DOES hit hard, DOES compete hard in the corners and if you asked 100 NHL forwards who they feared most between Kaberle and Markov, ALL of them would say Markov. In fact, most of them would say its no contest with Markov playing a way more gritty, physical game than Kaberle. Saying Markov is soft or a similar player to Kaberle when it comes to toughness is like comparing Grabo to Gretzky. Its just plain ignorance. Watch some hockey and learn something, dude. Your comments tend to be shoot first, and ask questions later.
See the ting is, Kaberle also competes hard in the corners and while he doesnt really hit guys all that much, I dont consider him soft. Most do, that is why i said the same about markov. I've already stated that I dont actually consider Markov soft, it was more of a dig at the same logic that you are ripping me on.
Markov is a better dman and plays a gritter game, i shouldnt have even brought this up.
I've been on edge here with this topic and I shouldnt be. 7752 was right, im getting too into this. Ive been replying with my first thought instead of thinking it through.
So sorry for not knowing who this pheonix Dman was, I follow hockey like crazy and I didnt know who he was. So shoot me.
im not a 15 year old kid ok? ill make sure to have more well thought out postings in the future. You seem like a cool dude redneck and if we were having a hockey conversation face to face im sure your opinion of me would change drastically. I have started and participated in alot of topics involving teams other than the leafs, so dont assume im just a leafs guy.
I look forward to a full season of enjoying some good hockey debates with you guys.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest4670
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Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:16:05
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| toronto rocks |
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:24:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4670
toronto rocks
More like HABS haha.. 
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
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Canadiens vs. Maple Leafs 
