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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 11/18/2009 : 14:25:00
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Hey Slozo, when has the goal of a penalty kill become scoring short handed goals??I always thought the goal of a penalty kill was to stop the other team from scoring. If a players gets a shortie every once in while, does that tell you they are a good penalty killer?? Not in my opinion.
And I never said that Penner would be a penalty killer for Team Canada. I was simply clarifying to those who said that Penner never killed penalties. And I do think he COULD play. Never said he WILL play.
Again, as loud as I can type this. Completely disregarding Penner as an option on the team is irresponsible in my opinion. (Very quickly 12 goals in 20 games works out to a pace of exactly 49.2, which was Penner's pace at the time. He is now on pace for 46 goals with 12 goals in 21 games). Sure, he's hot. Respectively speaking, a player on pace for 90+ points after a season of 37 is molten lava hot. But what if that is more than a hot streak? If he has 45-50 points at the 40 game point and is +20ish, and he doesn't even get a look, after being that piss poor teams best player, best penalty killer, and one of the top 3 power forwards in the game??
Seriously, think about that for a second. Not with your heart, but logically. Not with what happened in the past, what's has happened now. A point a game player who is 6'4", 245 lbs and can play on the PK, PP, and even strength??
That's guys name is Rick Nash and he's an absolute lock on the team. Why is a guy by the name of Penner with the exact same performance not even considered??
Richards will be there, Carter will more than likely be there. I agree Penner is unlikely. However, to not consider him???
I will concede that I don't get as many Philly games out in Edmonton as you folks on the East coast. Maybe I am missing something brilliant in Carter and Richards games. They are both great players, but I have not been dazzled by either of them. I think the same might be true about your perspective on Penner as I don't think there are many Oiler games shown out East unless the Oilers are playing out East. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 15:54:28
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Bean's yes he is playing good. Yes his name will be brought up in discussion. Possibly thru injuries he could be included to the taxi squad. But, in all likely hood, based on prior let downs and stigma to the name Dustin Penner, he is a coffee room conversation Olympic hopeful at best. Unless he becomes more dominating and absolutely can't be ignored.
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 06:53:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7195
Your gold medal squad:
LW Joe Thornton C Crosby RW Iginla
Lw Nash C Getzlaf Rw Perry
Lw St. Louis C Richards RW Doan
Lw J. Stall C E. Stall Rw Marleau
Top 2 lines with world class skill, speed, size, work ethic, and winning pedigree ('cept Thornton, see below)
Bottom 2 lines have tons of skill, size, speed etc. but also more sandpaper and defensive leanings.
Dont forget, these games are played on NHL size ice...hitting and physical play will be factors. And none of these players are prone to stupid penalties (maybe Perry). Also, 7 of the 12 are centers, but they are all good enough to make the simple trasition to winger (it's an easier postition to play).
To expain:
Thornton: Lazy and uninspired at times, but also undefensibly big and skilled and can handle Crosby's incredible execution level...
St. Louis (Art Ross, Stanley Cup) is one of the most underrated players in the NHL...his intensity ( at only 5ft 6') makes the players and team around him better..to me, if you take him out R. Smyth goes in...
Jordan Stall : Used to playing 3rd string on a winner...dominated in that role in the final last year....
The spares: Ryan Smyth, J Toews, Jeff Carter,....poor Savard - no respect
Have to admit : 23 points, +10 for Penner in 20 games is damn impressive. It's no fluke if you watch him play either, he is too big to move from the net....but he doesn't have the track record to make the team..
.I'd like to see Stamkos and Tavares invited to the games to watch and learn...
Defense:
Don't forget: NHL size ice, intimidation will be a factor against the bottom half of Russia and Swedens rosters:
Niedermayer, Pronger,
Weber, Boyle,
Keith, Seabrook,
#7 Doughty (I would - Watch him play, he is probably the best of the bunch),
Phaneuf, Green (defensive liability??),
Goalie:
Here is where me may screw up:
The goalies probably should be: MA Fluery, Steve Mason, Cam Ward
But they probably will be: Brodeur (game 7 Carolina - nuff said), Bobby Lou (broken rib, no cup ring), Osgood or Turco.....
So I would do this: #1 Brodeur..let him take the pressure of the #1 spot
#2 MA Fluery....put him in when Brodeur lets in a softy
#3 Ward of Mason, doesn't matter they aint playin
Did you just judge Marty Brodeur's career on game 7 of last year? Yeah, lets just forget about the 3 rings and the Olympic gold and continually being the best goalie in the NHL year after year right? and we can make a goalie having a breakout year last year make the team (See: Mason).. if you asked the goalies who would make it they would tell you exactly what everyone else is.
Although I dont think Luongo should make the team as of right now, but he will because he will be taking over the reigns after these Olympics. |
Edited by - Axey on 11/19/2009 07:20:55 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 08:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Bean's yes he is playing good. Yes his name will be brought up in discussion. Possibly thru injuries he could be included to the taxi squad. But, in all likely hood, based on prior let downs and stigma to the name Dustin Penner, he is a coffee room conversation Olympic hopeful at best. Unless he becomes more dominating and absolutely can't be ignored.
Thanks for repeating exactly what I have already said.
Did anyone else catch the TSN panel last night where they looked at Pierre McGuire's team Canada(which had Carter as the 13 forwards)???
MacKenzie, Laviolette, and Jones all had three scratches and additions they could make.
Two of the three didn't have Carter on the team at all. So I guess I am not as crazy as some are making me out to be.
However, they all had M. Richards and none even said Penner's name. 
I'm not surprised..... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 09:11:46
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Beans, didn't see that piece on TSN but was listening to the TEAM 1040 here in Van yesterday and caught a very brief bit and unfortunately, can't recall who they had on, but he had James Neal (Dallas) on his short list and said he's in the discussion? It's just amazing how many names get thrown around! In fact, not sure if anyone outside of Vancouver remembers this, but there was in fact talk of Alex Burrows possibly getting an invite to the orientation camp last summer after the strong second half he had last year! Almost had a bet with a buddy that he wouldn't make it but the guy chickened out (wisened up and took off his homer glasses) at the last second. I like Burrows' play and all but even if he kept up the second half pace from last year, there's no way i saw him making the team!
Carter's a tough one. I think it comes down to just how many center's they will have playing out of position. It's hard to ignore his 46 goals of last year! Personally, in my lineup, i took St Louis over Carter due to the fact he's a natural winger. If i were going to take a center to play on the wing over Carter, i'd have to consider taking Stamkos. Having said that, i don't know if he's ever played wing and he'd definitely not be cracking my lineup at center. I just can't see the centers not being Crosby, Thornton, Getzlaf and Richards? Btw, anyone notice that after a slow start, Getzlaf is starting to come around. After 3 points in his first 7 games, he went on an 11 game point streak and had 19 points in those 11 games before held off the score sheet in his last game!
Should be an interesting next month of debates.... |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 09:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Bean's yes he is playing good. Yes his name will be brought up in discussion. Possibly thru injuries he could be included to the taxi squad. But, in all likely hood, based on prior let downs and stigma to the name Dustin Penner, he is a coffee room conversation Olympic hopeful at best. Unless he becomes more dominating and absolutely can't be ignored.
Thanks for repeating exactly what I have already said.
Did anyone else catch the TSN panel last night where they looked at Pierre McGuire's team Canada(which had Carter as the 13 forwards)???
MacKenzie, Laviolette, and Jones all had three scratches and additions they could make.
Two of the three didn't have Carter on the team at all. So I guess I am not as crazy as some are making me out to be.
However, they all had M. Richards and none even said Penner's name.
I'm not surprised.....
Last time I defend your point of view thought you wnated someone to agree with you. Outside of the landslide of opposition you have been recieving. BTW I'd rather see Stamkos or Doan out there rather than Penner. Stamkos is proving to be a better pure goalscorer on a worse team and Doan has played consistant on the most inconsistant team in the league and fills any role put in front of him. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 10:27:09
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Nope, never want anyone to agree or disagree with me. I just like arguing with people!
I never intended any disrespect. I apologize if I offended you.
I do, however, strongly agree that Doan would be a great fit on the team. More than Doan being able to do anything, he is willing to do anything. He would block a shot with his face if it helps the team win. I bet he would fill water bottles if Babcock asked him to. He just wants to win. A lot like Ryan Smyth in that regard, but with a shoulder injury keeping Smyth out for at least a month, I think that makes Doan a lock.
Stamkos, I'm not sold on. I think that in the games where Tocchet has put Tanguay and Lecavalier with St. Louis (which is rare but does happen) Stamkos has not been as dominant. With St. Louis, he is awesome.
I don't see Stamkos as a guy on this team, but if the NHL plays in Stochi, he is not only there, but a HUGE piece to that team. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 11:23:07
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Beans:
You are saying that Penner should be considered at this point, because he has similar numbers/game as Nash right now.
But Nash also has extensive experience playing for team Canada, where he has played in the World Championships 3 times (and excelled - 21g, 18a in 27games! and getting the MVP nod in 2007 along with the gold medal), and he was at the Olympics in Turin for 6 games (1 assist), when Canada placed a disappointing 7th.
Penner has never played in an international tournament.
Nash is a perrenial all-star now it would seem, going in 2004, 07, 08, 09 and is assured of going next year as well. He won a "shared" Rocket Richard trophy in 2004, and has scored 38 and 40 goals the last two seasons on a pretty defensive team where he is the only star player.
Penner was on the Stanley Cup winning team in his rookie year, scoring 3 goals and 6 assists in 13 games.
That's all RIGHT NOW, btw . . . and would have to be considered as well if I or Yzerman were picking right now. Add in that Nash is faster, is the captain, plays more physical . . . and it's really not very close.
That's why Nash is a shoe-in. That, and the fact that a hot start for an ok player does not mean you are automatically on the Olympic team . . . with good reason.
We all know it's going to be controversial in the end, and that out of Marleau, Lecavalier, Doan, Morrow, Smyth, Carter, M.Richards, B.Richards, St.Louis, E.Staal and others - only a few will make it on the team out of this group. Heck, because of the exclusion of Savard, and having guys like Cleary in the tryouts, it's already pretty controversial. But the reasoning is clear, and following that reasoning . . . I think we can safely say that unless Penner ramps up his play to Ovechkin pace, he's not on this team, because he has no pedigree.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 11/19/2009 11:27:24 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 13:44:22
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For the final time, I never said he WILL be on the team. I said if the tourney started today, he would be on MY team and secondly, to completely discount his is irresponsible.
I agree that Nash is a superior player and has produced in International Competitions. But to say that a guy with the same size and production as Nash is not even considered is irresponsible.
(*just to jump in here, another perfect example of the lack of you watching Penner play is that he plays a purely physical game. As much or more so than Nash)
I think that the fans and the media are getting more hyped up in the name on the jersey rather than the players performance. |
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Guest4098
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Posted - 11/22/2009 : 18:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Carter is a proven player?? He has ONE season better than Penner!! His 1st and 2nd seasons are very comparable to Penner's.
How is Carter a proven player but Penner isn't??
Eric Staal, absolutely a proven player. But he is also hurt and not nearly as productive as Penner is today. Richards, I'm on the bubble with him. Not because he is a bad player at all. In fact, he is one of the best. However, how many around 6'ish 2 way centres does team Canada need??? That's why I put Richards off the list. I would take Marleau, Brad Richards, Crosby, Thornton, Getzlaf all before M.Richards and that's already one centre too many.
I would even pick Lecavalier ahead of Richards. Experience, Cup win, Olympian. And is as productive as Richards is today. Plus, Lecavalier and St. Louis would look nice.
You almost have to take both Richards and Carter or neither of them. I would personally not take either of them and have some established chemistry with other players.
Im sorry but richards is a lock if he is healthy you can take that to the bank |
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Guest4098
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Posted - 11/22/2009 : 18:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Ok, Let me think out loud for a minute:
Nash - Crosby - Iginla
Even if they end up not playing together, these guys are a lock to make the team. Crosby is our #1 center, Nash and Iggy will be there for sure. Depending on chemistry, either might go down to the second line, but I see all three together as they have all played together before.
* * * * *
Now, we have a bunch of potential centers to start off our second and third lines - Thornton, Getzlaf, Carter, M.Richards, Marleau, Lecavalier, E.Staal, J.Staal, Toews, Roy (from the list of invitees released in July), and potential add-ons Stamkos and B.Richards, who are both making a strong bid for the team with their play early in the season.
Whew!
Ok, so Yzerman has openly said that he wants the best players, but not just that - players that can bring something different to the table as well (he said this to explain the absence of Savard, and the inclusion in training camp of guys like Cleary and Lucic). What does this mean? Well, he wants a bigger, tougher team, for starters, as it's being played on the NHL sized ice rink. Guys who might be suited, as skilled as they are, for a checking role, for a grinding role, if necessary.
We also can't forget to pick the most skilled of the bunch either. Well, in this case it's easy for me to pick the next two centers, as they are both big boys with a crapload of skill: Thornton and Getzlaf. Seeing as Thornton is likely the second line center, and Getzlaf the third line center, let's build those lines, shall we?
Heatley - Thornton - ?
? - Getzlaf - Perry
I think both connections here are obvious, and fairly easy to make. Heatley has played very well so far with Thornton and has an excellent start to the season. Perry has also started off the season in fine form with 12 goals in 16 games. So, the question marks will be filled by the next best available wingers or centers who can convert to wing, so who do we have to choose from?
Carter, Marleau, Morrow, M.Richards, Smyth, Stamkos, Gagne, Doan, Cleary, Lucic
Well, let's put the 46 goal scorer Carter there, he has to go on the second or third line - I'd put him with Heater and Thornton. But wait . . . there is a very hot Marleau, who could play the wing and who has played with Thornton and Heatley on the power play . . . the rare threesome from the same team! Seems natural, so 2nd and 3rd lines are:
Heatley - Thornton - Marleau
Carter - Getzlaf - Perry
* * * * *
Now we have to fill out a fourth line, make sure we have some penalty kill specialists, and guys who can be a shut-down line if need be - responsible defensively with a potential for scoring.
I think Mike Richards needs to be the center here, as he is just such a complete player, can play in all situations. Where it gets tough is, who plays with him? And who is my 13th forward?
My candidates: St.Louis, Morrow, Smyth, Stamkos, E.Staal, Doan, maybe Penner
I like Morrow on left wing - again, he is versatile, and despite being under 6' is a gritty player. But it is hard to deny the way Penner is playing right now, and surely he is on the radar - after all, he is a hulking presence on the wing. Unfortunate that he's yet another left-handed LW, though, and another good candidate would be Smyth.
I give the nod here to Smyth, formerly "captain Canada", if he continues his current play, he's in. All that experience, grit, and he is not afraid of the corners.
On the right waing, is there anyone better than St.Louis? I really like him as a penalty killer, and he has lots of skill, while being responsible defensively.
Smyth - M.Richards - St.Louis
The 13th man . . . for me, it's either Eric Staal, or maybe Stamkos. I know Staal has had a horrible beginning to the year . . . but I do not forget what a great playoffs he had, and how dominant he was. Edge to Staal.
13th man: E. Staal
Any injuries happen, Morrow and Stamkos are there.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Excellent team I would be happy with that and it makes total sense but I want Toews somewhere and Brad richards Make it happen slozo.
I also have concerns about thorntons and marleau lack of production when chips are down.Toews, M Richards, and St louis |
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Guest2956
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Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:51:03
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Anybody even mentioning Penner as a possibility should cut the blade off of their hockey stick and go play ringette! C'mon guys let's not be rediculous...I think that Brentrock2 has about as much chance of making the team!
[Moderator Edit - No Need for name calling!] |
Edited by - Beans15 on 11/23/2009 11:25:31 |
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Guest2956
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Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:34:07
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Beans I started reading some of your posts after you were offended by the name calling lol...have you ever even actually played hockey?
I notice you said you like to argue but when somebody posts an opinion about something you wrote you seem to get really defensive...is there an anger issue we should all know about? |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:49:33
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Rule #1 its Beans world, we just live in it
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Guest7877
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Posted - 11/23/2009 : 12:57:41
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Penner for Captain Canada
NAsh can be the water boy |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 13:35:16
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since we're on the subject Mike Cammerlari anyone? point per game 12 goals on a injury riddled Montreal Canadiens, displaying the definition of leadership and charactor, i don't see him actually makeing this team but i think he should be getting serious looks maybe even more so then penner considering he has had back to back 38 and 39 goal seasons, if we were to list off the final 20 forwards Yzerman is considering i think Cammerlari must be on that list he should have had an invite to the orientation camp,,,, on a side note i am a habs fane but anyone who has read my comments before know im not some nut only giving Cammy the nod because he wears blue blanc et rouge i think he has earned a second look
Pasty |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 13:47:13
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If some people can not think logically and see a player for something other than the name on the back, so be it. If Lecavalier had a start like Penner(on pace for 45+ goals and 90+ points with a +10 rating), people would be singing his praises and his name would be thrown around as a potential Captain. But because it's Penner, he has no chance of making the team?
Oh, that's right! It depends what you did last year and each year befor that! I forgot. Where was my head.
There is a whole Forrest there people, not just some trees.
And as far as playing hockey, call Lou Lamorillo, Ken Hitchcock or Bob MacKenzie and ask them if they have played hockey before. Some of the most respected people in all of sports never played their sport. I have an opinion, and it's as valid as any other opinion, regardless if I played hockey before or not. Most of the print media out there that you read and agree with every day have never played any kind of high level hockey.
To answer your question, I have played some hockey. Not as much as others and maybe not as much as you. But that does mean anything in regards to me being a fan of the game or understanding the game. A 90 point players is a 90 point player regardless of I ever played Junior Hockey or if I played rec league ball hockey.
If you don't like my opinion, argue it. Bring something tangible to the conversation. Things like "Penner for Captain, Nash for water boy" or "It's Bean's world we just live in it" is a complete waste of everyone's time.
Now, if anyone has something intelligent to add to the conversation, please do so. This thread is about Team Canada, not who's played hockey or who may or may not have anger issues.
Add something to the conversation or post nothing at all.
(The word "idiot" and calling someone that is against the forum rules. What offends me or does not offend me is irrelevant.) |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 13:59:23
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for everyone who is calling beans out for suggesting Penner and for those who will surly call me out for suggesting Cammy could you make me a list of who would be the final 20 forwards you would be considering if you had too choose the 13 Canadian forwards to represent our country and tell me honestly with the season Penner and Cammy are having you would not have either of them in the top 20?
Pasty |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 14:15:09
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Well if cammaleri gets consideration I guess James Neal, Rene Bourque, Brooks Laich, Travis Zajac and Rich Peverley are all there too right considering they all have 20 or more points like cammaleri. Could you give an example of leadership cause i havent seen any. ya ya im a leaf fan has nothing to do with it cammaleri is a good player but not at the level for this team.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 14:27:26
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Pasty......i think for me, Cammalleri gets about the same chance as Penner, and that's not much. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying either is not worthy of consideration, i just don't think either has a real good shot of making the team. I have to say, while no one really expected this much from Penner, Cammalleri is having another fine season, all things considered, and prob should have got an invite to the orientation camp, especially seeing as guys like Derek Roy, Dan Cleary and Andy McDonald did? Just being invited to that camp would have given him a little better shot of making the team.
The one point which can be made is that they're (Penner and Cammalleri) both wingers and therefore could be considered valuable to a team deep at center. No disrespect to either of these guys but i see guys like Stamkos or Carter playing out of position before these guys. It's a shame for guys like this really. I mean, they'd prob make most country's teams, but Canada's lineup is going to be just that tough to crack!
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 18:25:42
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I think the one thing we are all missing is that the successful team Canada from the past all have a certain mix of grinder/defensive type forwards. Who are this editions grinders??
I am not talking about the offensive guys we think can be grinders, they are a risk. I mean the Mike Peca, Owan Nolan, Kris Draper, Rod Brind'Amour, Shayne Corson, Trevor Linden kind of players(who were all Olympicans).
That's the reason the Cammalleri's and (begrudgenly) Dustin Penner's will not make the team. Simply, there are better offensive players and they are not good enough grinders to make the squad.
That is why I see Shane Doan there for sure. Ryan Smyth should be if he's healthy. Toews, who I have gained a new respect for, is as good a defensive player as he his offensive.
Don't be surprised to see a Mike Fisher/Jarrett Stoll type player make the squad, simply to shut down the other team, PK, and just skate and hit until they can move.
There are only so many skill positions, and the guy who can shut down the skill is as important as the skill.
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 20:31:33
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Now how in the blue hell do you compare Mike Fischer to those guys he isn't in the same realm as them. If a grinder is selected for that team it will be Brendan Morrow.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 20:40:35
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Maybe you are confused. I am talking about Mike "Fisher". Maybe Mike "Fischer" is not as good of a player.
Might have something to do with every time I watch Mike Fisher play I am impressed by his ability to forecheck, hit, and skate. He causes issues for the other teams defense moving the puck. His ability to score in all situation, get 20+ goals a year, and who just might be the best all around 2nd line centre in the NHL today.
I think it has something to do with that. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 23:53:38
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Beans, easy on the spelling mistake comments 
I know where you're going with your comments about Fisher, however, he's another who i put in a class with Cammy and Penner. Not quite there. Not to say Canada couldn't win with these guys, nor am i saying they might not be better, but simply put, these guys were never really on the radar. Yes, they're having great seasons, but still have not done enough to unseat someone. I've maintained all along, if you need a grinder type line, it's Morrow, Richards (Mike) and Doan as they can play both defensive and offensive roles. Is Fisher a better fit here? Honestly, tell me if you think he is. I respect that he's a good player and certainly could fit in, but i just don't see him standing much of a chance.
Thing with Fisher is this....Guys like Cammy and Penner are having excellent first halves of the seaon (first third?). But, a guy like Fisher really can't simply show up on the scoresheet through 30+ games and make this squad. That's not the sort of role he'd play if he had a shot at playing for Canada. Pretty tough for him to get any consideration.
Bottom line is this (and correct me if i'm wrong).....Canada has taken some "role" players in the past. Of the ones you (Beans) just mentioned a couple helped them to a gold medal (Peca/Nolan) but the rest failed to do so. Now, i'm not blaming them for the countries failure, but when you have guys like Doan, Richards, Morrow, Smyth, etc, there's really no need for guys like Fisher IMO. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:31:49
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Thanks for the spelling lesson beans i'll get the name of your personal support worker later. As for Mike Fisher do you just have an issue going with the best players available because back to your old buddy Mike Richards he has one less point than Fisher and plays much more on the penalty kill. Despite your percieved lack of leadership skills and winning peedigree (despite captaining a team to a world junior championship as well as winning a a Memorial Cup with the Kitchener Rangers and Calder Cup with the Philadephia Phantoms) Mike RIchards is a better player in the grinder role you feel Fisher is so suited for. Seeing as you like to use remote stats so much Fisher avg's 0.52 pts per game over his career where as Richards avg's 0.78. Richards is a captain, Fisher is an A. And Fischer has won precisely jack s*** over his career.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 09:05:11
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Hmm. My opinions on these "fringe players" to make team Canada:
1. Penner and Fisher are not true grinders at all. Fisher is closer than Penner ever will be, but still - not quite there. Fisher has been on occasion a decent second liner, same as Penner. This year, Penner has been playing like a true first liner, and Fisher a solid second liner. I wouldn't look much more deeply into their fast starts other than that.
2. Penner, Fisher, Cammalleri . . . do not have the special teams pedigree or ability, nor the toughness needed or required to make this team as a skilled forward who needs to fulfill a certain, specific role.
We are full up on pure skill players - see Thornton, Crosby, Heatley. We are really stacked up with very skilled forwards with grit/toughness - see Nash, Iggy, Getzlaf, M.Richards, Carter, Perry.
We need SKILLED ROLE PLAYERS.
Roles Needed?
- penalty kill, shorthanded situations
- forecheckers
- solid defensive forwards
If you are not a forward on the brink of making the cut who is EXCELLENT at one or more of these areas, you are not going to make the cut.
Because frankly, more than three players off the top of my head are excellent in two or all of these areas - Morrow, Doan, St. Louis, Smyth, Marleau, Cleary, MacDonald, Toews, etc etc etc. Only three of these guys can make it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 11/24/2009 09:06:51 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 09:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Thanks for the spelling lesson beans i'll get the name of your personal support worker later. As for Mike Fisher do you just have an issue going with the best players available because back to your old buddy Mike Richards he has one less point than Fisher and plays much more on the penalty kill. Despite your percieved lack of leadership skills and winning peedigree (despite captaining a team to a world junior championship as well as winning a a Memorial Cup with the Kitchener Rangers and Calder Cup with the Philadephia Phantoms) Mike RIchards is a better player in the grinder role you feel Fisher is so suited for. Seeing as you like to use remote stats so much Fisher avg's 0.52 pts per game over his career where as Richards avg's 0.78. Richards is a captain, Fisher is an A. And Fischer has won precisely jack s*** over his career.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
ok, first of all it was not a spelling correction. There are 2 players listed on hockey DB as Mike "Fischer" so I thought we were talking about two different players. Let's not get too excited about it.
Secondly, if you talk about my first post it said 'Mike Fisher/Jarrett Stoll" type player. I never said either of them would make the team. I simply said a type of player who is very solid defensively and often called upon to shut down the other teams best forwards. Much like a Mike Peca did in 2002.
And again, if people can not comprehend the simple posts I am making, I could care less. If people think that Mike Richards is a better grinder/shut down type guy when he has never played that role in his entire career. So be it. We will agree to disagree.
I would put Mike Richards on my team, but not in the 4th line grinder/PK/shutdown role. He would be 2nd or 3rd line centre. Unfortunately, those spots are already filled on my team by Getzlaf and Thornton.
Richards is more than likely on my taxi squad, in case on of my top 9 forwards gets injured. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:30:52
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Beans, i know you were being sarcastic with the comment to Tiller about Fisher vs Fischer, and i too was only kidding with the spelling correction comment. But, don't come back on here and try to convince us that you thought he was actually talking about some other guy on hockeydb. For the record, i looked and here's what's listed:
Mike Fischer (Def) 1964-1971 (minor pro)
Mike Fischer 1986-1987 (played one game in WHL)
Mike Fisher 1981-1983 (11 GP in the BCJHL)
Mike Fisher - The one who i believe we all know is the guy in this discussion
Surely you didn't think Tiller was referring to one of these other dudes?
Regardless guys, there's no point getting upset over peoples opinions on who will or who should make the team. I'd take Richards over Toews but Beans would take Toews over Richards? SO WHAT? We're not the ones picking the teams.
Beans, i still don't think that with guys like Morrow and Doan around that we're gonna see any real surprises like a Fisher/Stoll type player making it. The guys who had this chance would be guys like Lucic and Cleary who were invited to camp but have not impressed enough to this point in the season to have a very good chance.
While you mention " I think the one thing we are all missing is that the successful team Canada from the past all have a certain mix of grinder/defensive type forwards." i don't necessarily see that being the case. Like i said in my previous post, only Nolan and Peca helped Canada win gold. The others, if i recall correctly, helped them place 4th and 7th? Oh, and you could throw in the immortal Rob Zamuner as well and his copper 4th place medal from Nagano. I understand what you're saying in that you don't think they should take guys who will have to play out of the roles they play for their current teams, but that's gonna happen to some degree. It's not like M. Richards can't play at both ends. He was nominated for the Selke, no?
Guys like Penner and Cammalleri bring "stuff" to the table and could fit on this team. However, we can't ignore the fact that a hot start for a guy who wasn't on the radar in the past year or so won't be enough. If it was, we may very well find Rich Peverley centering our third line? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:52:38
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Hey Alex, it's not just Olympic teams, it all International Teams. The Juniors always take a couple of non-offensive stars. The World Championships always take a couple of other stars. The Former Canada Cups always took a couple of non-offensive stars.
Take a look as what many consider to the be the greatest teams Canada has ever produced. I look back at the 87 Canada Cup team(the best team of my generation) and see names like Brent Sutter, Claude Lemieux, and Doug Crossman. They sure weren't on that squad to score!!
The formula has worked for decades. It's about balance and finding the right players to play in the right spots. That's my point. Who the player is going to be is irrelevant.
I am just saying that don't be surprised to see a non-typical name or two on the roster. All offensive does not win. All defense does not win. Balance wins.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 11/24/2009 11:14:09 |
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Guest4687
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Posted - 11/24/2009 : 11:06:07
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| Milan Lucic is going to be on the shut down line, i watched him as a Giant and now as Bruin, excellent all round player. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 12:06:13
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Of course Mike Richards hasn't had to play the grinder role but to label him as anything but a power forward capable of doing the best job on an olympic fourth line is ridiculous. His numbers are better than all the guys mentioned for that role except for Ryan smyth or maybe brendan morrow. With Smyth's injury i think he's out of contention for the team although i'd like to see him there still, that leaves Richards and Morrow, both guys are capable of doing the job well. I give the nod to Richards based on higher scoring touch and better penalty killing ability.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Mikey Boy
Rookie
Canada
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 12:34:24
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Everyone can sit here and talk bout Penner, Cammalleri, Mike Richards and Jeff Carter...but the one we should be talking about is the biggest surprise and thank god i took him very late in our draft is BRAD Richards. This guy better be on Team Canada if he stays healthy! I watched the Dallas game on Saturday...the guy can play with everyone in any situation. He is in the right spots at the right times, he's the first one back to backcheck, he penalty killed let lead the PP. 28 pts already, B.Richards should center our third line.
MP |
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Guest5052
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Posted - 11/24/2009 : 13:02:20
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Beans, you are entitled to your opinion on Penner (or anyone else) but it hurts your credibility when you go to such lengths to defend yoru argument about the Fishers/ Fischers.
Now the actual Mike Fisher to make team Canada remidns me too much of Zaumer making the team (at a time when argubale there was weaker offensive talent than now) and that was considered a diaster. I think there are better players, who may not be as good as Fisher is at skaing forechecking, defense, but are pretty good at those qualities and can also score. Mike Richards, Doan, Smyth (injured I know) and Morrow might fit that bill. Or who will be this teams Dale Hawerchuk who was a scorer converted to a third liner (and still an offensive threat) from the 87 canada cup... for whatever reason, I feel like Lecavalier could do that.
as far as the penner argument, it seems clear to me that players stock in Yzerman's eyes will rise and fall depending on how they are playing this year, but (and this is where Penner gets knocked out) only if they have played at a high caliber for a few years prior. No one is looking at Rich Peverly, and nor should they. Penner might turn his career around, or he might be like mark Parrish or Brian Savage used to get off to hot starts and fade badly. His failure to play well teh last few years, means he won't get significant consideration.
Now you might ask about the mistake not taking Crosby, but he did play at a igh level prior, and was a rookie, so its not the same thing as having played at a low level, which Penner has the past few years.
that doesn't mean he ought not to get some consideration, but i'd suggest only modest consideration at best and then quickly ruled out. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:21:06
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What hurts my credibility is when people can't read. If you look back on any of my posts, not once did I say that Mike Fisher would make the team.
I quote:
"Don't be surprised to see a Mike Fisher/Jarrett Stoll type player make the squad"
That does not say that Mike Fisher will make the team. It says that a player with the mold of a Fisher or a Stoll wouldn't be a surprise.
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 21:25:30
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Beans then put in your quote someone likely to fill that "spot" and stop giving the ol' "who me" song and dance when something is taken in the context you clearly meant it.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Guest1462
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Posted - 11/25/2009 : 02:43:03
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My take:
Offense
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
This should be your top line, no matter who you are.
Heatley-Thornton-Savard
Where's Marleau? Marleau doesn't carry a team, Savard does... he is a skill player that is underrated. He has a shot and can make plays -the only quesiton would be whether or not he can play RW. Heatley-Thornton has been the greatest duo this year. Thornton feeds, Heatley scores -the top pure goal scorer in the nation (still). Savard adds defensive mindedness and alot of poise (how many Bruins forwards do you know besides Savard? Thought so.)
Stamkos-Getzlaf-Perry
Getzlaf and Perry have unquestionable chemistry; I'd have them as my second line if just Thornton and Heatley haven't developed instant chemistry. Now Stamkos is a pure scorer who has elevated his game; and represents the 'youth' as he continues to develop and have his career season. Bobby Ryan is good, now imagine this line with Stamkos or St. Louis. Too bad Marian Gaborik isn't Canadian.
B.Richards/Doan-M.Richards-St.Louis
The hardest line for me to pick; I've noticed alot of you guys throwing in a 'grinder' line with Smyth/Morrow/Richards/Staal or whatnot. Don't forget about how much bigger the surface is and the premium placed on puck movers and skaters. While 'grinders' are necessary, I think you'd want to veer more towards the 'gritty' forwards that can skate. As such, I don't like to throw on guys who simply grind; I would want them to be a threat in open ice as well... I don't like Morrow's lack of offense production (same with Smyth..) and Staal has been hurt and hasn't earned a spot on this roster based on his play in the last 2 seasons. Mike Richards... easily one of the top 3 two way forwards in the game. His offensive production isn't where it should be, but understand that he plays for the flyers and sees time on the 3rd line as a shutdown forward when the likes of Danny Briere are healthy and in the line-up.
13th man:Shane Doan / Brad Richards / Jordan Staal:
Staal gives the team an option against a high powered offense; slot him in with Richards or put him in a shutdown role on the 3rd. He's done it in the playoffs and he can dominate boards. Richards/Doan to me are interchangeable parts on that 4th line.
Notable Omissions:
Eric Staal - Has done nothing in the past 2+ seasons. Even when the Hurricanes won the cup, he was the best player... but wasn't MVP caliber (see Cam Ward). He has struggled in the last 2 seasons, injury or not, given the depth of Team Canada he does not deserve a spot on the roster.
Brendan Morrow / Ryan Smyth - He's lost a step offensively, and is overrated as a checking/grinding forward. Richards is easily a better choice, and Brad Richards is the cog that runs Dallas when he is healthy. Morrow is a utility player, and we have plenty of skill upfront already. Besides maybe Heatley, mostly all the guys above play defense exceptionally well for forwards. We do not need more stay at home forwards.
Vincent Lecavalier - Vinny has been struggling. Stamkos and St. Louis are a strong tandem. Until he finds his dominant-self back Vinny needs to stay at home. The only 'iffy' thing about my lines (I feel) is not having Stamkos and St. Louis on the same line. But would you break up Getzlaf-Perry or Thornton-Heatley for Stamkos-St.Louis? Didn't think so.
Defense
Pronger-Niedermeyer
Boyle-Green
Keith-Doughty
Pronger-Niedermeyer played together for Canada and won a Stanley Cup. Nieds has lost a step, but he's still defensive minded and has been Captain for a long time, bring the experience to the younger D. A lot of people have shy'ed away from Green because he's such a 'run and gun' defenseman, but remember how open the ice is in Olympic hockey. A pairing like Boyle and Green will shoot he lights out and move the puck like no other pairing we've seen before. Keith-Doughty are solid stay at home blue-liners who are having career seasons.
7th man: [b]Blake / J.Bo
Blake is overlooked -he had a monster year last year and has been injured most of this year. He brings experience and can still bang with the best of them. I'm worried about his health though. J-Bo would be his replacement.
[b]Goalies
Brodeur / Fleury / Luongo
Brodeur is consistent and has the experience. He is solid and consistently touted as the toughest goalie to play against by NHL'ers, despite his age. He has the experience and is a proven winner. Fleury is a close second -he is streaky, but has two Stanley Cup final appearances in the last 2 years, and plays great under pressure. Luongo.. needs to pick up his game.
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Guest5382
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Posted - 11/25/2009 : 06:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest1462
My take:
Heatley-Thornton-Savard
Where's Marleau? Marleau doesn't carry a team, Savard does... he is a skill player that is underrated. He has a shot and can make plays -the only quesiton would be whether or not he can play RW. Heatley-Thornton has been the greatest duo this year. Thornton feeds, Heatley scores -the top pure goal scorer in the nation (still). Savard adds defensive mindedness and alot of poise (how many Bruins forwards do you know besides Savard? Thought so.)
B.Richards/Doan-M.Richards-St.Louis
The hardest line for me to pick; I've noticed alot of you guys throwing in a 'grinder' line with Smyth/Morrow/Richards/Staal or whatnot. Don't forget about how much bigger the surface is and the premium placed on puck movers and skaters... I don't like Morrow's lack of offense production (same with Smyth..)
Defense
Pronger-Niedermeyer
Boyle-Green
Keith-Doughty
.... but remember how open the ice is in Olympic hockey. A pairing like Boyle and Green will shoot he lights out and move the puck like no other pairing we've seen before. Keith-Doughty are solid stay at home blue-liners who are having career seasons.
So Savard is more defensive minded than Marleau? This is based on what? Marleau is the better fit with the Thornton - Heatley duo than Savard.
They are playing on NHL ice.
Smyth is not producing? Last I check he had more points than Crosby. Morrow is only 0.7PPG. If that is not production please tell what is?
So Green who is not such a defensive defensemen gets in but Marleau who is more a defensive forward than Savard is out. How about some consistency? |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 07:09:43
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| Guest 1462 I would get sick of watching Thornton and Savard pass the puck 20 times to each other because nobody wants to shoot and then loosing the puck. Joe needs to play with Heater because he will shoot and one other player who likes to put the puck on the net. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 07:59:44
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| guest 1462..... As the other guest pointed out, the games are going to be played on NHL sized ice. GM Place in Vancouver is not changing the surface to the usual European sized ice. This surely must make you rethink your roster seeing as some of the decisions you made were based directly on the ice size? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 08:09:42
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Some good thoughts there, guest 1462.
Some quick points though:
1) Savard was not invited to the Team Canada training camp, and was specifically referred to in many questions to Steve Yzerman. Stevey Y stated that he wants players to fulfill different roles, and that is why he invited guys like Cleary and Lucic and stiff-armed Savard. So, if he didn't want him then, he is very likely to not want him now.
I understand that many may have wanted him on THEIR team Canada, but he isn't going to be on THE team Canada - so there's no point in pushing something that ain't gonna happen.
2) Your Stamkos on the second line idea - intriguing. Can't find fault with it, other than arguing for a player one thinks will do better. Myself, I'd put someone else there (Marleau) who also has the familiarity, experience, and skill - but Stamkos is flying these days, so it's a fair enoug pick. Still, for a short tournament, I'd go with familiarity if all the skill is there - which it is.
3) As others have mentioned, playing on NHL ice this time.
4) Interesting . . . Richards and Richards with St.Louis. I like it! Brad Richards has played wing before if I remember correctly, and that right there is a very dangerous defensively responsible forward line right there!
At any rate, you have two out of the three I'd have there (M.Richards and St.Louis) and really, after that it's pretty interchangeable. Brad Richards has lots of experience, he's back on top of his game, and he's got everything you'd need from this line.
5) Disagree with Doan or Jordan Staal as your 13th . . . somehow, I don't see Doan getting in, and I'd have to think Jordan is a very longshot with all the other guys around with more experience and better stats.
Agree with E.Staal, Morrow, Lecavalier. But not Smyth . . . he has definitely found his game again. May have lost a step, but experience, willing to play any position (versatility), and playing once again with a high skill level - on the NHL ice, I'd take him over Doan as the 13th.
The one person I'd leave the door open for is Eric Staal - if he really starts to pick it up once more coming into December, he might be the 13th guy.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Topic |
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Final 3 spots on team Canada (forwards) 
