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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2009 : 14:28:21
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Canucks Man......While it's not necessarily a "rule" sotospeak, a sophmore slump is not a "myth" either. Let's just call it a "term" or a "phrase" shall we? Either way, it's something that affects MANY young players entering year 2. It doesn't by any means affect ALL of them. It's no different than how they say year 4 is often a breakout year for young players? It's proven over time that MANY youngsters take till that year to truly break out, but not ALL of them. I'm not sure, but i don't think Leaf fans are simply implying that all will be well next year with Schenn and it's ALL to do with being his sophmore year? I think what they're saying is like many others before him, for whatever reason, he's struggling in year two but is young enough to overcome a subpar season and become the defender they thought he would be?
I agree more with Beans' assessment that maybe they brought him up too soon last year and should have let him further develop? Doesn't always work that way though? Without looking at the obvious ones (Crosby, Tavares, etc), realize that some guys have excellent first years without being held back, ahem cough cough, Trevor Linden............. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 16:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
And to those of you who doubt that ot lost and shootout lost doesn't count in the % stat. Look at what nhl.com has to say.
In this page you will see clearly that the Leafs are .456 because of there 12-15-7 record. And Florida are .500 with a 14-14-7 record.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20102ALLAAAAll&sort=points&viewName=summary
I don't care what NHL.com says. A loss is still a lose. In overtime or anywhere else. If it makes a guy feel better to count a lose in OT as 1/2 a win, go ahead. I don't personally. With the Leafs or anyone else. Including my mighty Oilers who are listed not the 15-14-4 they are listed at but are 15-18, 3 games under .500
It's not to make me feel better. I will only feel better when the Leafs are actually in the playoffs, and if you look at my post during this summer or right now I'm one who agrees with you that the Leafs wont make it this year.
I'm saying this and stating this because that's how it goes, that's how the NHL counts it. The reason it's not considered a lost is because it's not 5 on 5 hockey. 4 on 4 is not the same game and shoutout, really is not a team hockey play.
Call it like you want but the truth and the fact is the NHL disagrees with you. |
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Guest4623
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Posted - 12/17/2009 : 18:56:37
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[/quote]
It's not to make me feel better. I will only feel better when the Leafs are actually in the playoffs, and if you look at my post during this summer or right now I'm one who agrees with you that the Leafs wont make it this year.
I'm saying this and stating this because that's how it goes, that's how the NHL counts it. The reason it's not considered a lost is because it's not 5 on 5 hockey. 4 on 4 is not the same game and shoutout, really is not a team hockey play.
Call it like you want but the truth and the fact is the NHL disagrees with you.
[/quote]
does it state that it is considered a tie? does the colomn say ties? no it is still called a loss. The only reason the nhl seperates this is because it doesnt want it to look as bad when a team with more losses gets a playoff spot over a team with more wins. It looks kind of bad on the league if a team with a .400 record is in the playoffs with the eights spot, but a team with a .500 record is in 9th.. But in reality it is still a loss. there for the leafs have a way to go befor they are actually a .500 team |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 23:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I am far from a Leaf hater or a Leaf Fan hater. I actually have a ton of respect for the legitimate fans of the Leafs. The guys that look at things objectively and appreaciate that their team is exactly what it is but still scream their support to their boys anyway. Anyone who could be a fan of a team that has seen such limited success is a die hard fan and I give respect to that.
Some of my favorite posters are in fact Leaf Fans. Guys such as Slozo(although we don't agree much) or Porkchop or Matt Roberts or from yester-year Antroman are all posters that I read every time they post.
And I don't like any fan (Leaf or other wise) that doesn't have any kind of objective or logical view. I would think that at the least some of you recall me even beratting my own Oiler brethern for thier comments towards MacT and Robbie Schremp last season.
I am an equal opportunity hater and lover. I could care less what team you cheer for, as long as your view is at the least marginal realistic. For example, if someone said Kaberle for the Norris, I would not be nearly as aggressive in my opinion as Luke Schenn for Norris.
I don't hate the Leafs specifically or all Leaf Fans. I hate the over abundance of media coverage the Leafs get, but that's not the fault of their fans or the team.
Beans, come on... You are one of the biggest Leaf haters out there when really you should be a Flames hater as an Oilers fan... I can't even count how many times you talked trash about the Leafs. Hell, as far as conference go the Leafs are in better shape than your Oilers... last year Toronto beat Edmonton pretty bad when they played.. Since then you seemed to really have a hate on for the Leafs. I actually like Edmonton I'd prefer them over Calgary I used to have a fiancee that was an Oilers/Leafs fan, she passed away at the age of 24 due to cancer... personally I'd love to see a Toronto vs Edmonton finals with the Leafs winning the cup obviously
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 09:06:20
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I am not a Leaf hater, I am a realist. Are the Leafs my favorite team, nope. Not even close. But I watch nearly every Leaf game that is on TV that I can get.
What I hate is the illogical thought process involved in stating the team is better than what it is. What I also hate is unreasonable media coverage for a team that is no where near being a contender yet get more coverage than any other team.
That's what I hate. I used to hate all things Leafs, but I have come to the realization that my hate needed to be more specific.
And who cares who I cheer for or who my team's rivals are?? I can dislike any team I want whenever I want.
If you look back, I don't argue everything Leafs, just the things that are illogical in my eyes. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 11:38:49
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Thou dost protest too much. I'll leave it at that, Beans, and move on to the points you made then.
False Argument #1: a regulation time loss = an O/T loss = a shootout loss
How anyone can argue that the value for these losses is the same is beyond me. Even an O/T loss . . . it's not 5 on 5 hockey, and with any penalty, it's 4 on 3. It's a pond hockey game, meant to encourage scoring (which it does to some extent).
A shootout is garbage in my mind - a like having a home run derby to determine the winner of a baseball game tied after 9 innings. I find it laughable that anyone would say "a loss is a loss" when talking about shootout losses, which is as good as a coin toss on most nights.
Just because NHL.COM doesn't differentiate between o/t losses and shootout lossed, doesn't mean we as discerning fans can't see the difference.
Of the badly named "OTL - OverTime Losses", which of course actually means overtime losses AND shootout losses combined - the Leafs have 7, 2 of which are shootout losses. If I count every shootout as a tie (the wins and the losses both), and make the O/T scores stand as straight up wins/losses, here is the Leafs record:
11 wins, 20 losses, 3 ties
No, not very good. But good enough to be at the bottom of a very tight pack in the conference, 4 points out of 8th spot among a group of 7 teams. The team in that 8th spot, the final playoff spot? Florida, with a record of 14-14-7. If I make all shootouts ties, and all o/t losses count as straight losses, Florida's record:
11 wins, 20 losses, 1 tie
Kind of puts things into perspective, hunh? It really evens up the entire standings, in fact, when applying this principle . . . as we see that top teams like Pittsburgh (4-0 in shootouts), New Jersey (4-1 in shootouts), and Boston (3-1 in shootouts) have really benefitted and have their stats padded as a result, just like Florida's wins are padded. Pittsburgh being 20-11-4 under my "system" is still a great record . . . but they'd be tied with NJ and behind Washington as a result.
So: knowing that at least one or two playoff teams in the east will have "losing records", it is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the Leafs could battle for a playoff spot and sneak in.
Especially when all it would take is getting a bounce here or there in the shootout.
False Argument #2: The Leafs need to play .600 hockey the rest of the way to make the playoffs
The Leafs have 48 games remaining, and let's say that this year, to be certain, you might need 94 points to grab a playoff spot. The Leafs now have 31 points, so they'd need 63 points in their remaining 48 . . . so let's give out some potential records that would get them there:
24 wins, 9 losses, 15 OTL . . . a .500 record.
26 wins, 12 losses, 10 OTL . . . a slightly better win .500
etc.
You get the picture - just like all the teams battling in the eastern and even western conference, they are all one 5 game win streak and then playing .500 the rest of the season from a solid spot in the playoffs.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 12:33:22
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Nice post slozo,
So you're telling me theres a chance? (Dumb and Dumber)
Beans,
If I cheered for a team other than Toronto I would hate their guts for the amount of coverage they get for being a sucky team, but that being said, as a leafs fan i dont mind it haha.
No one can tell you who to cheer for, im sure there are a few people who werent to happy with me when I was ripping on the habs last year. You can make a thousand valid points as to why the habs are a great franchise but I just dont care, its in my blood to hate the habs.
I actually think alot more people would warm up to the leafs if they had of won at least 1 championship in the past 40 years and/or if they didnt make so much money. They are a pretty classy organization but it gets smudged by the fact that tickets are expensive and the team has been piss poor since the lockout. Like really, its not as if the team has guys like ruutu or cooke on the team, the core of the club is made up of guys like stajan, kaberle, ian white, alex ponikarovsky, all players who play clean hard hockey.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 13:21:25
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Mr. Roberts, the thing with the Leafs is the are similar to the Yankees in baseball minus the winning. They are the team you either love or hate. There is nothing indifferent. Even if the Leafs won, they would still be hated. It's not a personal thing.
And Slozo, I will accept that I protest too much. Everyone has to have at least one flaw, I guess you found mine. Now I have a resolution for next year and I can go back to being perfect!
Now, the OTL thing is dead on. I love the shootout for entertainment but I strongly agree that the success of game should not be based on a breakaway. I like the world of ties.
Anyway, I took a look at the current standings and removed all shootout wins, making them ties. I also removed all shootout losses, making them ties, and turned all the actual overtime loses into loses. Here is what I get for overall rankings (number in brakets is today's rules rankings). So as you can see, the top 10 is pretty much the same. Chicago and Washington switch places. However, a couple of teams make big jumps or drops such as Philly and Florida.
Toronto is still 29th.
PIT 1 (1)
CHI 2 (6)
SJS 3 (3)
LAK 4 (4)
NJD 5 (5)
WSH 6 (2)
PHX 7 (8)
COL 8 (9)
CGY 9 (10)
NSH 10 (7)
BUF 11 (11)
VAN 12 (15)
DET 13 (12)
OTT 14 (16)
ATL 15 (13)
MIN 16 (18)
CBJ 17 (19)
DAL 18 (14)
BOS 19 (17)
EDM 20 (21)
PHI 21 (27)
NYI 22 (22)
NYR 23 (23)
ANA 24 (24)
STL 25 (25)
MTL 26 (26)
FLA 27 (20)
TBL 28 (28)
TOR 29 (29)
CAR 30 (30)
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Edited by - Beans15 on 12/18/2009 13:23:31 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 13:40:38
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Oh, hey Slozo, my .600 comment isn't wrong if you measure things in the old world, where a team didn't get rewarded for the OT loss.
And you are dead right, a 5 game win streak and .500 the rest of the way is pretty much what a team needs to get a playoff spot. However, the Leafs are NOT .500. So they need to get to .500 and then go on a 5 game win streak.
The Leafs today are 12-15-7. The would need another 6-3-1 to get to 18-18-8 for that .500 record and have 44 points with 38 games remaining. Now, let's go on that 5 game streak to get to .500 + 5 games. So we are now at 23-18-8 for 54 points with 33 games remaining. Now, let's play .500 the rest of the way in, throwing in even 1/3 the losses as OT losses. So the Leafs wrap up at about 40-30-12. There, we go to 92 points for the 8th spot!!
We just had to go 28-15-5 the rest of the way. By my crazy math, .583. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 19:21:01
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I actually meant that now - RIGHT NOW, the Leafs are a 5 game win streak away from needing to play .500 the rest of the year. This is all off the top of my head, and I've been drinking it up (see: nog), but even with tonight's loss, I'll do the math:
Leafs still have 31 points, but now only have 47 games left. I said they are a 5 game winning streak + playing .500 the rest of the way from making the playoffs . . .
5 wins starting tomorrow night, that's 10 more points, with 42 games left. Now we're up to 41 points.
Half of 42 is 21, so 21 wins is 42 points. 42 + 41 = 83. To get to the needed 94 points, we need 11 more OTLs . . . so that makes a 5 game win streak, and then going 21-10-11.
Hey, it's doable, not impossible . . . and this egg nog is terrific.
The math works for me!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 21:15:14
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The only thing I currently see actually happening is, the eggnog. It sure is yummy.
As for the Leafs making it in to the Playoffs, even as 8th seed, I'm just not falling for it.
As said, it is POSSIBLE. When you look at the math behind it. But I don't believe it's doable.
Irvine |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 22:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
The only thing I currently see actually happening is, the eggnog. It sure is yummy.
As for the Leafs making it in to the Playoffs, even as 8th seed, I'm just not falling for it.
As said, it is POSSIBLE. When you look at the math behind it. But I don't believe it's doable.
Irvine
possible and doable, same thing
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 23:58:06
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I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 06:30:35
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Remember what some of us posted in here. It is a long season and it is full of ups and downs. Looks like the Leafs are coming back down from their latest high.
Also, the only stats that count are the real stats of todays game. No use arguing about what stats could be if there was not shootouts or under another system. The stats for todays Leafs still show a team that is not that good. However, they show glimpses of the team that Burke is building and no matter if you hate the Leafs or not they are a team on the verge of being good, really good. |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 12/19/2009 : 10:40:04
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| Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 11:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf
Wow you seem to know alot about the Oilers for a leafs fan. Jealous, or do you want Quinn to come back. For my money the Oilers are more of a playoff team than the Leafs. Kadri need to gain some weight to be considered an up and coming player, Souray is in the same caliber as Kaberle and I dont think Souray is the best Leafs Dman. But keep wagging the flag guest. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
It seems to me that the Leafs fans blaming Schenns play on the 'sophmore slump' are just reaching for an excuse for his bad play. There is no such thing as the "Sophmore Slump" Its a mith, What did Sidney Crosby do in his second year? ohh thats right he lead the league in scoring. Pavel Bure went from having 60 points to having 60 goals, and 110 points. Kopitar had his best year to date in his "sophmore slump" Niklas Backstrom (capitals not wild) jumped up 19 points last year, his "sophmore slump". So blame his bad play on whatever you want, but pick somthing more reasonable.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Listen I agree more than alot of people do use it as an excuse for poor play but that being said the sophmore slump isn't an imagrinary phenomenon. You can't compare a young defenceman to an elite scorer in Bure, a kid touted as the next Gretzky in Crosby and a guy playing with arguably the best player in the league (Ovechkin) in Backstrom.
Brian Leetch, Teemu Sleanne, Jarome Iginla, Ed Belfour, and Bakcstrom's linemate Semin all had sophmore slumps but ended up having decent careers. Does that mean Schenn's gonna snap out of it and be a number one defencemen? Hell no but just the same it doesn't mean he won't.
Leaf fans are so quick to forget that he is a 20 year old kid playing in the most pressurized market in the league. I'm not making excuses for his play and I don't think anyone including Schenn himself would argue that his play doesn't need serious improvement, but traditionally defenceman take longer to become complete players than forwards. If Schenn can't turn his play around this year and falls off the map next year then everyone calling for his head now will feel justified but I still think to judge a kid on a year and a half of play on a terrible team is a bit much.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 15:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 15:54:11
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Yes not all players have good second years, but just as many of them have bad first or third years, oh and semin jumped up from 22 points in 52 games to to 73 points in 77 games, not much of a slump eh?
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf
I'm gonna take my pal Slozo's advise and leave this one alone. Beside, this is simply too easy for me. It wouldn't even be fun.
Now, Sophmore slumps and OTL aside, the Leafs 7-3-0 is nearly ruined with a 2 game losing streak, specifically speaking of the Buffalo lose yesterday. I caught the 2nd and 3rd period and felt like I was watching the Leafs from the first 10 games. Seriously, I am not hockey coach, but don't you think Wilson could find some kind of drill or something to teach that team to move the puck out of their own end??? It's frustrating. My wife nearly thought the Oilers were on TV with the amount of shouting I was doing. I feel for you awesome Leafs fans because you do deserve better than that.
If that performance comes out tonight, it will be another lose, potentially 8 points out of the playoffs, and a comfy fit at 29th.
I hope they lay a spanking on Boston tonight because 3 turns into 5 before you blink and you need to be going the other way.
Now, how is that for encouragement from an supposid "Leaf Hater??" |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
Yes not all players have good second years, but just as many of them have bad first or third years, oh and semin jumped up from 22 points in 52 games to to 73 points in 77 games, not much of a slump eh?
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Fair enough I missed the year he played before the lockout he had a junior year slump. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 07:28:15
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I still say that the Zombie Leafs (btw Matt - this was a great moniker you came up with, thanks!) are back from the dead.
Buffalo has our number, and there's no getting away from that . . . if we can finally beat Miller next game (how come the mighty Pens get Lalime, while the lowly Leafs get Miller the night before then probably Miller on Mon? Where is the fairness in that?!?), then it'll be a huge monkey off our back. Whatever the result there, the big games of course are against the Isles and the Habs next week . . . but again, it's a long season.
I think the problems with Schenn are twofold: the expectations are way too high (I do not see him as a blue-chipper), and he is very young in a crazy market. I am just glad that finally he was sent down for a stint, and by the look of it, he'll be sent down again. He needs it, in my opinion . . . and with White playing so well, I'd rather replace Schenn with an Exelby instead - less mistakes, same toughness and skill level.
I think there is certainly something to the sophomore slump, especially when applied to players that had a great first year. The expectations rise dramatically, others key in on you more, and the pressure intensifies to a level never before known. That's when players crumble under pressure, make mental errors, and squeeze their sticks too hard.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 09:48:26
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Milburry said it pretty good about the Miller vs Leafs and Lalime vs Pitts. The old saying is You don't throw a change up to a .250 hitter. Basically, why go with your backup against an apparent weaker team and maybe get 2 points? It makes more sense to have a more sure bet of the 2 points, plus it gives your back up some confidence knowing that the coach trusts him enough to go against the best in the league. Also, in this sitaution the Sabres play TO again on Monday and then Washington. So rather than Miller playing 3 games in 5 days, he played 2 games in 5 days. Extra day of rest??
Slozo, you are dead on with you Schenn report. He will never be as good as people expect him to be in TO. It's just that simple. He is a legitimate #3-#4 day to day d-man but he is expected to be a #1. It's just not happening. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/20/2009 11:41:50 |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 12:12:55
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I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 13:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
same thing with young Goalies
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro
USA
662 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 20:16:00
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Tonight I saw the Leafs play for the first time this season (vs. Sabers) and even though the result was an overtime loss I was rather surprised. The leafs showed some speed, some faceoff prowess, tenacity, and some "ice awareness".
Only wonder why I was watching Leafs vs. Sabers instead of Penguins vs. Devils. Well I am a diehard and am just sure the Pens would have won if I had been watching.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 22:02:18
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
Couldn't agree more.
Devils and Leafs gave up on Jason Smith (Beans looking in your direction) who went on to be a top shutdown guy in Edmonton. Souray is another guy that was thrown out by the Devils and turned into a top shut down guy. Again I'm not saying any of this means Schenn will be a top guy but I truly believe the blocks are there for him to be a true #1 but to call him "ruined" is ridiculous. Of course he could have benefited from another year of juniour or a stint with the Marlies (which I think may be in the not so distant future) but he still earned every minute he played last year. |
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Guest4813
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Posted - 12/22/2009 : 02:22:53
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by hanley6[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
I agree with everything you said there, only I choose to not waste my time complaining about things that I can't control, and that can"t be changed right now anyway. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 02:29:53
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Guest4813[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by hanley6[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
I agree with everything you said there, only I choose to not waste my time complaining about things that I can't control, and that can"t be changed right now anyway.
I wrote this, and another thing, Porkchop how you can say Luke Schenn had a "Steller" Rookie year and keep a straight face is completely ridiculous. He was average at best.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 03:50:15
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[/quote]
I wrote this, and another thing, Porkchop how you can say Luke Schenn had a "Steller" Rookie year and keep a straight face is completely ridiculous. He was average at best.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
[/quote]
OK stellar is probably a strong word to use for his rookie season. But, with a straight face, excellent and better then most 18 yr old rookie defencemen is a fair evaluation of Schenns rookie season. You can look a Doughty last year and Hedman this year. Schenn is a step behind both of them but he still out performed many others like Pietrangelo and Bogosian who were drafted ahead of him. In fact I think he still out performs them. Why else would the Blues let Pietrangelo go to the Canadas junior camp.
I also said in that previous post that he would have benefitted far more by returning to junior for one more season.
I am not calling him a god or anything like that, just saying I am not ready to right him off. Defensemen are notoriously slow to develop. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 12/22/2009 03:52:34 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 04:49:34
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So then, Porkchop, you are admitting that Schenn did not have a "stellar" first year?
I think what you are saying is, that Schenn had a pretty good year for being a rookie 18 year old defenceman playing everyday on a bad team, right?
That is a world away from having even a very good rookie season . . . which would, in my mind, be one step below "stellar".
LAST YEAR: 70gp, 2g, 12a, 14pts. -12, 71 PIM, can't find his hit totals on nhl.com for last year
Like you said - not too shabby for an 18 year old defenceman on a crap team, which is to say - not great really.
Now, this 19 year old in Buffalo - Tyler Myers? So far he has played himself up to the top 2 defensive pairing minutes on a team first in their division, and through 35 games he has 3g, 16a, 19pts, +7, and is generally considered one of the front runners for rookie of the year.
Now THAT'S a stellar season (so far).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 09:21:37
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
Couldn't agree more.
Devils and Leafs gave up on Jason Smith (Beans looking in your direction) who went on to be a top shutdown guy in Edmonton. Souray is another guy that was thrown out by the Devils and turned into a top shut down guy. Again I'm not saying any of this means Schenn will be a top guy but I truly believe the blocks are there for him to be a true #1 but to call him "ruined" is ridiculous. Of course he could have benefited from another year of juniour or a stint with the Marlies (which I think may be in the not so distant future) but he still earned every minute he played last year.
Hey Tiller, I think we might be watching a different game. NHL hockey right??? Jason Smith was a gritty, hardnosed leader who would give his last breath to his team. But top shutdown guy in Edmonton?? Are you kidding?? He was #4 defensemen in Edmonton and was on the 2nd PK unit. Smith was a solid everyday NHL defenseman for over 1000 games. But top shutdown guy??? Puh-lease.
Souray and Shutdown guy has never been said in the same sentence before today. Souray has to work very hard to skate as well as just about any other player and get beats over and over. Without a slapshot, Souray may not be an NHL player.
If you are going 'look my way' bring something legitimate. Porkchop had a great example in Coburn. Smith and Souray are far from great examples of shutdown guys.
Finally, reading is key. I never said he was written off and ruined. I don't know that, and no one does. But bringing him in as an 18 yr old and benching him does what??? It MIGHT ruin him. That is what I've said all along.
Never once said he WAS ruined. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 10:11:55
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| Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh. |
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Guest8369
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Posted - 12/22/2009 : 10:27:20
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh.
Smith was a heart and soul player not an all star. Souray is a PP 1st line offensive threat, not a grinder shutdown or PK type kind of player. Both are true NHL player's just not well rounded. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 14:00:03
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Slozo, my evalution of Schenn is based solely only on how he played as an 18yr old rookie defencemen in the NHL. IMO he had a very good, if not excellent year.
Schenn is not a point producer, never was, never will be. So as a 18 yr old rookie he was probably the best "rookie" shutdown dman. Can anyone name another rookie dman last year as effective at that. He was not expected to carry the puck out of the zone or make that first pass out. What he did do was exceed expections at his defensive zone coverage. Sometimes being the best dman on the ice.
As a 18 yr old he was able to demonstrate leadership on team that struggled immensly throughout the season. There is no reason that a 18yr old rookie should be the one defending a teamate game in and game out and how many times last season did we witness Schenn do that.
I am positive had he played for Detroit or Pitt or any other top team that he would have had even a better season.
People can knock on him for being a Maple Leaf but he most certainly had very good to excellent rookie season. Stellar would have gotten him a Calder, so no not a stellar rookie season.
Had he sucked last year would everyone be calling this season a sophmore slump?
PATIENCE is required, who knows if he finds his game but he has demonstrated that he has the tools to be a top dman in the future. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 12/22/2009 14:02:21 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 15:46:00
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh.
Nope, not selling anyone down the river. A spade is a spade. Neither Smith nor Souray are standout shutdown players. Never have been, never will be.
This is consistent with what I have always said about either player.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 15:56:31
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]Slozo, my evalution of Schenn is based solely only on how he played as an 18yr old rookie defencemen in the NHL. IMO he had a very good, if not excellent year.
Schenn is not a point producer, never was, never will be. So as a 18 yr old rookie he was probably the best "rookie" shutdown dman. Can anyone name another rookie dman last year as effective at that. He was not expected to carry the puck out of the zone or make that first pass out. What he did do was exceed expections at his defensive zone coverage. Sometimes being the best dman on the ice.
As a 18 yr old he was able to demonstrate leadership on team that struggled immensly throughout the season. There is no reason that a 18yr old rookie should be the one defending a teamate game in and game out and how many times last season did we witness Schenn do that.
I am positive had he played for Detroit or Pitt or any other top team that he would have had even a better season.
People can knock on him for being a Maple Leaf but he most certainly had very good to excellent rookie season. Stellar would have gotten him a Calder, so no not a stellar rookie season.
Had he sucked last year would everyone be calling this season a sophmore slump?
PATIENCE is required, who knows if he finds his game but he has demonstrated that he has the tools to be a top dman in the future.
Good point, but winning by aclaimation is not really winning. People can't name another rookie shutdown defenceman because there wasn't any. Being the only shutdown rookie defenseman means he was automatically the best. And also the worst. 
But if we want to go there, lets. How about Matt Hunwick, Zach Bogosian, Adam Pardy, or Tyson Strachan.
In fact, let's dance around the 3rd worst +/- of all rookie defensemen??
Gotta love a -12, 14 points in 70 games and a killer 2% shooting percentage being listed as a very good if not great season.
Any standout defensemen, such as Drew Doughty, follow up an below average rookie season with a standout 2nd season.
Schenn might be a player one day. But to say anything more than that, specifically that last seaon was anything even close to average let alone standout is laughable.
Let's look at Luke Schenn for a second. He lays a lot of hits, blocks a lot of shots. Both are really good things for a defensemen to do and those things make your team mates love you. But he also doesn't score and he turns the puck over 3 times for ever time he takes it away.
That makes him...............
Jason Smith. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/22/2009 16:02:32 |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 02:22:12
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Excellent point Beans, being the best of one doesn't really say to much, Schenn was okay at best last year, I honestly hope he improves and can become a good shut down defenceman but he isn't there, not even close imo.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Guest7752
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Posted - 12/23/2009 : 06:41:45
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Zombie Leafs ?
Back from the Dead ??
What can one say except:
Congratulations Toronto Maple Leafs.
Regardless of how low in the standings this team is, they are on the way up and have BIG momentum – they have shown a lot of balls to get to where they are now.
I must say, as much as it hurts to say it – these guys are REALLY back from the dead.
I’m sure many are still skeptical, but I for one MUST congratulate these guys on their determination.
On the other side of the coin – my beloved HABS and OILERS have disappointed me and I can only hope things get better.
Do not, however, get me wrong:
Burke is still an idiot, Gainey is still #1, Leafs are still not my “most loved” and I still love to mock the Leaf fans and media.
Happy Holidays to all, especially the ones I love to “disturb” once in a while.
Hope the New Year brings every Canadian hockey fan a GOLD MEDAL!!!
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 07:23:17
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Wow, 7752 you let me off easy. It must be christmas.
anyways, now that we've seen a little more action since I started this topic I've kind of come to grips with what I feel is reality.
The Leafs just aren't good enough defensivley to make the playoffs. The work hard enough and they get enough goals, but the brain farts in their own zone and the neutral zone cost them way too many goals. Vesa Toskala also forgets how to play goal every 4 games or so and lets in backbreaking goals like Buffalos 2nd goal last friday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAW8Xyl8Eo
Ian White and Francois Beauchemin made 2 elementary mistakes on monday which lead to buffalo tieing the game and winning it in OT, and this is something that happens just way too often. They are dead last on the Pk by a landslide and have allowed the most goals against in the league, and these are the 2 things that will cancel out all the other good things they do. I think they can stay in the race, but i'll be shocked if they can get into a playoff spot with the last place pk and ga.
But still, you could view tha glass half full, they are 5 points back and have a key game against the Islanders tonight. A win would really keep them in the hunt.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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The Zombie Leafs - Back from the dead 
