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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:39:22
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This morning the Calgary Flames traded Dion Phaneuf, right wing Fredrik Sjostrom and prospect Keith Aulie to Toronto for forwards Niklas Hagman, Matt Stajan, Jamal Mayers and defenseman Ian White.
I'm still absorbing the deal but at first glance I'm not really sure how this improves the Flames club. A little sad to see Sjostrom go too, he is a brilliant skater and has some serious potential.
You guys out east what do you think of this? How did the flames do in this deal?
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:50:56
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Word on the street is Phaneuf was a poison in the Flames' dressing room. Chemistry-wise it makes sense. Also Calgary pillaged anything resembling talent that was left on the leafs. Added some depth and some offense. Hagman and Stajan are good 2nd to third line players, while White was probably the most consistent d-man on the leafs.
Also Toronto's plan seems to involve assembling the most overpaid and overrated defense corps in the league. Obviously if Phaneuf can live up to his potential than they win the deal, but that is a big if at this point. In the meantime, I have no idea how the leafs expect to score goals. |
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Guest5479
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Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
This morning the Calgary Flames traded Dion Phaneuf, right wing Fredrik Sjostrom and prospect Keith Aulie to Toronto for forwards Niklas Hagman, Matt Stajan, Jamal Mayers and defenseman Ian White.
I'm still absorbing the deal but at first glance I'm not really sure how this improves the Flames club. A little sad to see Sjostrom go too, he is a brilliant skater and has some serious potential.
You guys out east what do you think of this? How did the flames do in this deal?
i dont know all the salary details but it sounds like a dump and a set up for another move |
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Guest5940
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Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:00:27
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| the leafs do this every year they trade away there best players for one good player, if they keep doing this they'll eventually become a good team but that might take 10 years |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:05:34
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I think this is a briiliant trade for the flames. They got 4 good roster players that immedatly help there team. and if all the rumours about Phanuef are true calgary probably couldnt wait to get rid of him.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Guest4597
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Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:02:16
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| The Flames got jacked! We just got an elite defenceman for a bag of pucks! |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5940
the leafs do this every year they trade away there best players for one good player, if they keep doing this they'll eventually become a good team but that might take 10 years
Give your head a shake, the Leafs are getting a top defenceman in Phaneuf, Calgary's # 3 prospect in Aulie (Ihear calgary has drafted some decent defencemen in the past) who is 6'6" and skates well, and Sjostrom who is a former first round pick.
The Leafs trade Mayers, role player who saw little ice-time, Hagman who will likely play with his countryman Jokkinen and Stajan who looks like Calgary is intending on trying with Iginla.
Ian White is the big part of this deal for most Leaf fans, I personaly loved the guy, he was the closest thing to wendel since wendel left (yes that includes the mustache).
All in all the Leafs lose some offensive talent for an upgrade on the back end and Calgary who was stacked at D, which I think was hurting them, get some solid role player to help ignite their offence. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Word on the street is Phaneuf was a poison in the Flames' dressing room. Chemistry-wise it makes sense. Also Calgary pillaged anything resembling talent that was left on the leafs. Added some depth and some offense. Hagman and Stajan are good 2nd to third line players, while White was probably the most consistent d-man on the leafs.
Also Toronto's plan seems to involve assembling the most overpaid and overrated defense corps in the league. Obviously if Phaneuf can live up to his potential than they win the deal, but that is a big if at this point. In the meantime, I have no idea how the leafs expect to score goals.
No doubt a step down in experience up front, but losing Blake is a step-up I think he just seems to ruin any type of consistency regardless of who he was playing with, Stajan was either gonna walk at the end of the year or get paid too much by the Leafs, the only real loss offensively is Hagman who isn't exaclty a bona-fide sniper. I'm excited to finally have the younger guys from the Marlies get a shot at playing together like in the preseason where they were electric.
Still a work in progress but I think both trades were excellent moves and big steps forward. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:04:17
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I think this is a good trade for the Flames. Phaneuf wasn't having the chemistry they were hoping for with Bouwmeester. And they are fighting for a playoffs spot and if they make it they would automatically be contenders with Iginla, Kipper and Bouwmeester. Also when Iginla wasn't scoring the Flames were not winning so adding Hagman and Stajan will make two solid lines for the Flames.
Bourque, Stajan, Iginla
Hagman, Jokinen, Langkow
That's not bad
As for the Leafs their playoff hope for this year is gone, so getting rid of Stajan and Mayers is no big lost because I don't think they were resigning them anyway. Hagman and White were the heart of the deal but you need to give away some players in order to get a guy like Phaneuf. Plus I heard good things about Sjostrom and Aulie.
As for the Leafs, I'm glad they got rid of all those forwards as I was blaming the Leafs being worst in goals against and PK on the forwards not being reliable in their own zone. So we needed a change there, and plus the kids will be able to make the jump in the NHL consistently.
And sure now the Leafs defense is way overpaid. But I think their will be some cutting, if we could get rid of Finger and Exelby that would be great. Also it seems like there's not much room for a guy like Komisarek anymore, especially with his contract.
i think its a win win situation right now. And as a Leafs fan I'm glad we have Phaneuf on our side as I was always a big fan of him. This will help our powerplay, finally a guy who can shoot the puck to put with Kaberle. East conference players, keep your head up, Phaneuf is coming your way. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:27:27
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Anyone watch Phaneuf's comments on the trade? Guy's a piping hot kettle. Clearly does not want to leave Calgary.
Bad year for the guy. Misses the Olympic squad, labeled a poison in Calgary, and then gets traded. What motivation is there to work on a last-place team when everything is going wrong? Hope he plays his heart out and puts that skill to use, but man oh man, if the answers to those media questions are any indicator, Toronto should be feeling a little queasy right now |
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Guest2250
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Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:43:35
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| tiller u must be nuts...comparing white to clark >gimme a break. Opposing fowards fart and move white off the puck. Very over-rated along with p**** stagen. Only good player here is hagman..and he is also very small...none of these players really make any big difference to any team...thats why the leafs cant win, very, very glad they are all gone...sick of looking at them.....an upgrade on defence.. u must be joking...Phaneuf is one of the best NHL players in the gane today...This deal is a steal for the leafs in the long run....they receive a franchise player for a bunch of career LOSERS.. |
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baumer
Top Prospect
82 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2250
tiller u must be nuts...comparing white to clark >gimme a break. Opposing fowards fart and move white off the puck. Very over-rated along with p**** stagen. Only good player here is hagman..and he is also very small...none of these players really make any big difference to any team...thats why the leafs cant win, very, very glad they are all gone...sick of looking at them.....an upgrade on defence.. u must be joking...Phaneuf is one of the best NHL players in the gane today...This deal is a steal for the leafs in the long run....they receive a franchise player for a bunch of career LOSERS..
You just argued the exact same point as tiller33 was. Also he said White was the closest thing the Leafs had to Wendel nowhere did he say White was better. Nothing like trying to argue and insult a guy when you are saying the exact same thing as him. |
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Guest2250
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Posted - 01/31/2010 : 14:32:23
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| hey baumer...didnt see tillers comments thay way...dont mean to insult any1...by the way who do u think won this trade ?...whats ur opinion of the players who are gone ?...leafs have missed the playoffs since 2004...do u think any of these ousted players helped the leafs over the years...if yes please explain how ?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:05:37
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I honestly believe this is the best thing for Phaneuf. Playing under Brent Sutter's system was killing him. I won't go off on that tangent though.
I don't care very much for either Burke or Wilson but Phaneuf will flourish in Toronto under them and will go on to be the Leaf's first Norris winner in a few years.
I think Toronto fans are really going to like Sjostrom as well. Good defensive player but really has some offensive potential given half the chance to show it. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 16:27:43
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Couldn't agree more willus, maybe not about the Norris, but Phaneuf was sorely in need of a change of scenery. He will hopefully flourish and will take some pressure of Luke Schenn to progress a little slower in a 5th or 6th defenceman role. I also agree on the sjorstrom comment he is a step up from a guy like wayne primeau (who i can't see coming back next year) in a penalty killing perspective.
As for the white/wendel comment only baumer was able to realize I meant the comparison in terms of heart not skill. And really if you're gonna carve someone dont spell stajan: stagen |
Edited by - Tiller33 on 01/31/2010 16:29:31 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 16:37:27
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I see Calgary as getting exactly what they wanted. Let's face it, regardless if you like Phaneuf or not, he was not making his cash this year at all. He has gone from a Norris candidate and a shoe in for the Olympics at the start of the year to a #3 defensemen. His size, skating ability, shot, and angry nature took him as far as they could in Calgary. Big Dion should have read the writting on the way when Bouwmeester came in. Further to that, Giordano has been Calgary's best defensemen this season and with him becoming an RFA at the end of the season, Sutter finds the cash to sign him at the far less than $6.5 million that Phaneuf will now take from MLSE through 13/14.
Seriously, if I am Sutter, I am happy that I had the assests on the back end to make this move and even happier that I got Burke to give so much for an underachiever. Ian White alone is pretty solid, but to get Stajan and Hagman out of the deal. Wow.
I was literally shocked when I heard about this deal. I thought my friend was pulling my leg. To read that Sutter actually got what he did, impressive is not a big enough word.
As far as Phaneuf winning a Norris?? The only potential improvement for him winning the Norris is he is now in the fishbowl of Toronto. He doesn't have the defensive chops to do it. Say what you will Willus, but that is a common and very consistent opinion. It's not just me, but most pundits say the same thing. Although I have a personal dislike of Phaneuf, he definately has the potential to be a Norris defender. But I just don't see him having the dedication or desire to do the work on the back end that it takes to get there.
However, I sure like the thought of a Leafs PP with Kaberle on one side and Phaneuf on the other. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 17:30:39
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Well said Beans, i have to agree with most of what you say. Just curious, are the "pundits" you speak of, the same guys i refer to often as "experts"? 
I will stick to what i said earlier, that this trade is tough to evaluate right now (as are most i suppose). Really, we won't have a clear winner in this for a couple of years and it's gonna depend on what exactly Dion decides to do with his game in TO. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:02:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I see Calgary as getting exactly what they wanted. Let's face it, regardless if you like Phaneuf or not, he was not making his cash this year at all. He has gone from a Norris candidate and a shoe in for the Olympics at the start of the year to a #3 defensemen. His size, skating ability, shot, and angry nature took him as far as they could in Calgary. Big Dion should have read the writting on the way when Bouwmeester came in. Further to that, Giordano has been Calgary's best defensemen this season and with him becoming an RFA at the end of the season, Sutter finds the cash to sign him at the far less than $6.5 million that Phaneuf will now take from MLSE through 13/14.
Seriously, if I am Sutter, I am happy that I had the assests on the back end to make this move and even happier that I got Burke to give so much for an underachiever. Ian White alone is pretty solid, but to get Stajan and Hagman out of the deal. Wow.
I was literally shocked when I heard about this deal. I thought my friend was pulling my leg. To read that Sutter actually got what he did, impressive is not a big enough word.
As far as Phaneuf winning a Norris?? The only potential improvement for him winning the Norris is he is now in the fishbowl of Toronto. He doesn't have the defensive chops to do it. Say what you will Willus, but that is a common and very consistent opinion. It's not just me, but most pundits say the same thing. Although I have a personal dislike of Phaneuf, he definately has the potential to be a Norris defender. But I just don't see him having the dedication or desire to do the work on the back end that it takes to get there.
However, I sure like the thought of a Leafs PP with Kaberle on one side and Phaneuf on the other.
Please clarify in what way Phaneuf has underachieved. Then I can properly respond.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 19:48:39
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Players improve, or should improve year after year for the early portion of their career. Usually, when a player digresses in their peformance and/or production, it is underachieving. Furthermore, to consider that just a few short seasons ago he was the heir apparent to the Big Chair that Nicky the Swed has been keeping warm for the past 8ish years and has performed like a mid-level defenseman this year, again underachieving.
His first season he has 20 goals with 49 points and is +5. He goes next to 50 points and +10, then to 60 points and plus 12.
Then, to 47 points and -11, and is now on pace for a killer 31 points and +3. Not quite the numbers one would expect from a $6.5 million a season, Blue Chipper.
Now, I may be wrong, this might just be an off year(or 2, but who is counting) but I also don't see much passion in the way he plays the game. He looks like he loves to hit, he loves to rock that shot from the point, and he loves to skate that puck out of his end. All three he does well. But what I watch time after time is also how little he likes mucking it up with the other teams big guys and I can't recall the guy ever dropping down to block a shot. He falls asleep at times and I have watched time after time of him letting lesser players out work him for the puck.
To me, that's underachieving. But maybe it is a poor choice of words. Maybe it more frustrating that I see a guy that has physically gifts that most others would dream of and that he has the ability to be the best d-man in the game and it just looks like he doesn't care.
Ultimately, I think the fishbowl of TO will show this a lot more clearly in the near future. It won't be in the next 5 or 6 games because he gets the honeymoon. But just wait. It will be bright and shiny soon enough.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 09:46:39
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I just love how no matter what the leafs do it gets ripped on. Stajan and Hagman were just bums on a crappy team 2 days ago now they are going to take calgary to the stanley cup.... riiiiiight. Matt Stajan is going to be the #1 centre in calgary, yet it was laughable to think of him as a #1 centre in toronto.
Anti leaf bias is just as strong as blue tinted glasses. Dion Phanuef has a new lease on life in toronto and a chance to prove a whole lot of people wrong. The upside on Phaneuf blows away everyone toronto gave up, its not even close.
Ian White was a solid player for us, probably our most consistant, but he was getting top 2 ice time in toronto. How will he react to being the 4-5 guy behind regher and bouwmesster, giordano.
The biggest thing I like about this, it changes the culture in the toronto locker room. Almost all of the guys who have been here through the last 5 years of losing are gone, the JFJ stamp has been erased.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 10:33:11
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To say that the Phaneuf upside outweighs everything TO gave up is grossly underappreciating the abilities of those players or grossly overestimating Phaneuf's abilities.
With all due respect Matt Roberts, this tells me how little you looked into this or how little you actually watch Flames hockey. Ian White will be picking up the virtually all the minutes that Phaneuf was getting. The top 4 d-men in Calgary get 26, 23, 22, and 20 minutes a game respectively. Ian White's minutes will not be going down at all. There is a good change that Ian White will be paired with Regehr, making possibly the best shutdown tandem in the NHL today.
Ian White and Phaneuf's stats this year are almost identical. The difference being in that Phaneuf's partner in Calgary is far superior to who Ian White was playing with.
Mark my words, the honeymoon for TO will be short. Phaneuf is pure Hollywood. Tons of flash, little substance. He is an absolute killer on the PP and will punish the other teams little guys physically every chance he gets. But you wait and see how little the team actually improves with him on the back end. You're opions of 'upside' will be short lived as that 'upside' is only on one side of the puck.
That being said, I agree completely with your last comments. The biggest positive out of thise for the Leafs is that their players now understand that every one of them is expendable. |
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Guest2244
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Posted - 02/01/2010 : 12:14:00
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| Beans you are nuts putting white in the same class as dion...do you even watch hockey...a gm can replace calgarys pickups from toronto via free agency anyday...players like dion.p come along maybe, just maybe once a decade...even doug maclean agrees with this...and that sez something...cause he doesnt agree with anything...lol |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 12:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
I just love how no matter what the leafs do it gets ripped on. Stajan and Hagman were just bums on a crappy team 2 days ago now they are going to take calgary to the stanley cup.... riiiiiight. Matt Stajan is going to be the #1 centre in calgary, yet it was laughable to think of him as a #1 centre in toronto.
Anti leaf bias is just as strong as blue tinted glasses. Dion Phanuef has a new lease on life in toronto and a chance to prove a whole lot of people wrong. The upside on Phaneuf blows away everyone toronto gave up, its not even close.
Ian White was a solid player for us, probably our most consistant, but he was getting top 2 ice time in toronto. How will he react to being the 4-5 guy behind regher and bouwmesster, giordano.
The biggest thing I like about this, it changes the culture in the toronto locker room. Almost all of the guys who have been here through the last 5 years of losing are gone, the JFJ stamp has been erased.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Matt, i totolly agree with your comparison between the "anti leaf bias" and the "blue tinted glasses" but you do have to understand that while many did say the things you mentioned, many Leaf fans claimed these guys to be better than most thought and are now saying "good riddance" and stuff like that. I have to say, being a Leaf fan has got to be frustrating at times like this (and in no way am i referring to their lack of winning lately). |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 12:52:01
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My stance regarding what the Leafs gave up is that of Guest2244. The Leafs can replace most (if not all) of what they gave up rather easily during the remainder of this season or in the off season. They gave away a couple of 20 goal scorers, or less. Ian White is the worst loss, but even he was playing purely on heart... not skill.
At the end of the day, finding a couple of 20 goal scorers can be signed during free agency in the off season. Sykora? Older, but can still bolster 20 goals depending on who he plays with.
Phaneuf is superior to White, in my opinion. Phaneuf has more upside there, and that's who he is really replacing. Not the forwards. Since he plays D.
I can see Hagman, Stajan, etc... being replaced.
Irvine/prez. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 17:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Players improve, or should improve year after year for the early portion of their career. Usually, when a player digresses in their peformance and/or production, it is underachieving. Furthermore, to consider that just a few short seasons ago he was the heir apparent to the Big Chair that Nicky the Swed has been keeping warm for the past 8ish years and has performed like a mid-level defenseman this year, again underachieving.
His first season he has 20 goals with 49 points and is +5. He goes next to 50 points and +10, then to 60 points and plus 12.
Then, to 47 points and -11, and is now on pace for a killer 31 points and +3. Not quite the numbers one would expect from a $6.5 million a season, Blue Chipper.
Now, I may be wrong, this might just be an off year(or 2, but who is counting) but I also don't see much passion in the way he plays the game. He looks like he loves to hit, he loves to rock that shot from the point, and he loves to skate that puck out of his end. All three he does well. But what I watch time after time is also how little he likes mucking it up with the other teams big guys and I can't recall the guy ever dropping down to block a shot. He falls asleep at times and I have watched time after time of him letting lesser players out work him for the puck.
To me, that's underachieving. But maybe it is a poor choice of words. Maybe it more frustrating that I see a guy that has physically gifts that most others would dream of and that he has the ability to be the best d-man in the game and it just looks like he doesn't care.
Ultimately, I think the fishbowl of TO will show this a lot more clearly in the near future. It won't be in the next 5 or 6 games because he gets the honeymoon. But just wait. It will be bright and shiny soon enough.
So the regression you are referring to is in point production. But what you and all the rest of the media types who don't do their due diligence fail to recognize as factors are injuries, teammates and coaching.
Briefly(as I don't care to have this argument again), Phaneuf had a hip injury plaguing him from late October of season on through to the playoffs. Severely hampered his normally explosive first few strides. He also had as his defensive partners for virtually the entire season two rookies. Pardy and Giordano and on top of that was not playing on his natural side. Then he was also misused by Keenan. Considering the injury there is no way he should have been playing 30 minutes a game against top lines every night. He ended up with the worst goals against in the league that season and of course people use that to bolster the terrible defensively tag he got stuck with. By the way, Niedermayer has been leading the goals against category all season and is -17. Is he a defensive liability?
This season you fail to take into account the coaching as a factor in his low point production. Most people do but make no mistake, it is Brent Sutter that is the main cause of their low scoring. With the exception of a couple players the entire team are having a down year offensively. The rest of the team isn't scoring hence the reason for Dion's lack of assists. But as you will notice his goals are pretty much at or close to where he has been in the past. So he is in fact producing. It is not his fault his teammates are unable to finish or make plays under Brent Sutter.
Do not discount the effect coaches have on players. It is foolish to do so.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 17:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There is a good change that Ian White will be paired with Regehr, making possibly the best shutdown tandem in the NHL today.
Ian White and Phaneuf's stats this year are almost identical. The difference being in that Phaneuf's partner in Calgary is far superior to who Ian White was playing with.
Ask any fan who has followed the Flames this season closely. Virtually everyone one of them will tell you Regehr has been absolutely terrible this year. In fact most would tell you that he was bringing Phaneuf down and not the other way around. Regehr has been consistently beat to both sides costing goals and is constantly giving the puck away either by not looking or just making stupid passes. Not sure if his injury from last season's playoffs are possibly still affecting him but he has been one of Calgary's poorest defencemen this season. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 18:29:29
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Your commentary is refreshing, Willus, and makes me have strong hopes that Phaneuf will get back to elite status again.
So, the trade . . . all I have to say is wow. Unexpected would be the word . . . as many have mentioned, not a word about this in the over-saturated media complex of Toronto, so well done on Burke!
I am sad to see Hagman go, as I really did like him a lot. As solid a second liner as you will get, and pretty sound defensive forward (one of the very few on our team). He will be missed, but is replaceable nonetheless.
Stajan was ok, but I was never his biggest fan . . . and good second line center is as good as he gets, methinks. If he clicks with Iginla for some reason, well, he could have some upside there . . . but really, I think he'll settle into a second or third line role in Calgary. Again, replaceable . . . and this year, obviously the loss of Hagman and Stajan kills theoffence a bit - but the offence isn't my main concern, and there will be real first liners coming to the Leafs in the future hopefully anyways.
Ian White . . . I liked him, and he was a solid d-man who is a lunchpail kid - does his job, and is an all around solid #3 or 4 guy. Will be missed.
Jamal Mayers - good riddance.
Really like what we have gotten back - good, solid young prospects, and Dion Phaneuf. Dion brings a solid resume to the Leafs, and can be an offensive force as well as a physical one if he brings his A game here. Here's hoping.
I call it a pretty even trade, with the prospects and Phaneuf's rejuvenation possibly bringing much more upside to the Leafs. Yeah, Calgary could find some upside if Stajan finds some top line chemistry, but I doubt it. Calgary gets some auxiliary scoring, which they needed.
I call the trade pretty even right now, with serious potential for the Leafs to look like bandits if one of the two prospects turn into a solid player, and/or if Phaneuf returns to form. You have to give up to get, but the Leafs gave up players that are easily replaceable . . . Phaneuf has the potential to be a franchise type player.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 18:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2244
Beans you are nuts putting white in the same class as dion...do you even watch hockey...a gm can replace calgarys pickups from toronto via free agency anyday...players like dion.p come along maybe, just maybe once a decade...even doug maclean agrees with this...and that sez something...cause he doesnt agree with anything...lol
Where is Doug MacLean these days?? That's right, giving his crappy opinion on sportsnet because he has not chops as a GM.
"Dion" comes along once a decade?? Maybe the "Dion" from 2 seasons ago. The "Dion" from the past two years is....
Ian White. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 18:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There is a good change that Ian White will be paired with Regehr, making possibly the best shutdown tandem in the NHL today.
Ian White and Phaneuf's stats this year are almost identical. The difference being in that Phaneuf's partner in Calgary is far superior to who Ian White was playing with.
Ask any fan who has followed the Flames this season closely. Virtually everyone one of them will tell you Regehr has been absolutely terrible this year. In fact most would tell you that he was bringing Phaneuf down and not the other way around. Regehr has been consistently beat to both sides costing goals and is constantly giving the puck away either by not looking or just making stupid passes. Not sure if his injury from last season's playoffs are possibly still affecting him but he has been one of Calgary's poorest defencemen this season.
Willus, you speak as if you are the only person who has watched any kind of Flames hockey this year. You fail to realize that I live in the same network area and have watched virtually as many Flames games as Oiler games not only this season but for many seasons past.
Now, I will not argue that Regher has had an off year, but I have not heard a single one of these 'media types' that you so quickly disregard say anything about either player making the other better or worse. And I fully understand and appreciate that Keenan did not utilize any Flame effectively, not just Phaneuf. Yet some of the Flames still found a way to make a difference. As far as Sutter this season, you and I both had a similar opinion that if any coach could make Dion a Norris winner, this is the guy. Obviously, we can see how that turned out. In the end, the coach applies the minutes and system. Phaneuf got the minutes, and that's can't be argued. But did he really make a positive impact on his team???
Maybe if he did, he would still be on a potential playoff team, not a potential lottery pick team.
Ultimately, I have no desire to have this arguement again either. It's painfully obvious that we are both very passionate about our opinions on this guy. If Mr Phaneuf decides to play the hockey that I think we all agree his is capable off and walks off the stage in Vegas(blech ) with the Norris(or at least helps TO win), than I will gladly and proudly eat the crow I should. As a man of integrity and class, I would full appreciate the crow you may eat if in the next 18-24 months people question how a one-dimensional player gets $6.5 million a season.
We will have to wait and see.
One area I think people are grossly underestimating is the impact that Ian White makes. He may not be the flash that Phaneuf is, but in the Leaf games I have watched, he was by far their most intelligent player. And, as one other poster said, plays with a ton of heart. If Sutter doesn't resign him in the off season, this trade will be a huge waste for the Flames. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/01/2010 18:54:40 |
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Guest4227
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 04:51:50
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One thing that is being overlooked is Phaneuf leaving Calgary. He played junior in Red Deer for Brent Sutter and played in the world junior for him. He is the Sutters type of player and was traded at 24 years old.
Something is wrong here. You don't trade Dion to make a trade you trade him to get rid of him.
6.5 milion is too much money for him.This will come back to bite the leafs. You can't pay someone that much money and not have them perform.
I am sure Attitude played a part in this trade as well. If the Sutters are giving up on him something is going on.
I never realized how much I don't like Dion Phaneuf before.
Burke is a genius in the Giguere trade getting rid of Blake.
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Guest2278
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 07:21:29
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| u guys are crazy...calling down dion phaneuf...must be a lot of leaf haters or something. Heres my prediction...Thomas Kaberle along side Phaneuf will be EXPLOSIVE...they are going to be unbelievable..not that Phaneuf needs some1 to make him a good hockey player but i think kaberle will help turn him into the top defenseman in hockey. Dion Phaneuf is the one and only defenseman in the NHL right now who can be the next Chris Pronger for the next 12 years...steal for Toronto. By the way any1 catch the new leafs in their debut ?..talk about offense....The red light is still on...lmao |
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Guest5140
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Guest4803
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 09:31:46
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| Phaneuf shouldnt of bad mouthed "Destiny" because Destiny just shipped him off to the cellar of the nhl. Good luck toronto with your future Captain cant wait to see him look like a pilon everynight in another uniform on Sportscentre. |
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Guest7359
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 09:56:42
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| I think the big reason for all the Calgary trades now that the Jokinen/Prust for Higgins/Kotalik is salary dump. The only players out of the 6 that they have picked up with contracts next yr are Kotalik/Hagman both around 3 million if I remember correctly then also White is restriced FA looking for a big raise. Can anyone else say Ilya Kovalchuck ? I think you will see them make a run at Kovalchuck now that they have cleared the books for next yr. Anyone else see this happening ? |
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Nucks07
Top Prospect
Canada
45 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 11:19:21
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 07:21:29
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u guys are crazy...calling down dion phaneuf...must be a lot of leaf haters or something. Heres my prediction...Thomas Kaberle along side Phaneuf will be EXPLOSIVE...they are going to be unbelievable..not that Phaneuf needs some1 to make him a good hockey player but i think kaberle will help turn him into the top defenseman in hockey. Dion Phaneuf is the one and only defenseman in the NHL right now who can be the next Chris Pronger for the next 12 years...steal for Toronto. By the way any1 catch the new leafs in their debut ?..talk about offense....The red light is still on...lmao
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You leafs fans think that kaberle is the greatest d-man in the world, is it because thats all you guys have to watch in toronto is a offensive/defensmen? Toronto better hope that phanuef pans out cause with all the money tied up in there defensive, there going to have nothing up front except for phil "im not worth 3 draft picks" kessel... im thnking the biggest winner with these trades is boston, there gonna get some high picks |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:38:49
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woah, discussion is pretty heated.
Beans - I respect your opinion alot, ive been reading it on this site for almost 2 years now so I hear where you are coming from. But i also know that an oilers fan doesnt usually like a flame, but ill give you the benefit of the doubt.
Also, i looked into this alot, you should know how much of a leaf fan I am by now, im actually kind of insulted. How much leaf hockey have you watched, or should i say forgotten? Do you really think matt Stajan is that much of a difference maker? Ian White isnt going to scare anyone with his physical prescence or shot, he plays smart yes, but Ive seen him get burned a ton of times as well. Nik hagman scores some nice goals and skates well, but he also dissapears for 18 games at a time. Im well aware of what went down.
I also know that Keith Aulie is a very solid prospect for the marlies and could end up on the leafs blueline in a couple years. Sjostrom has tons of speed and is a solid penalty killer, he just wont score any goals. We really need someone to kill penalties though so hopefully he can help in that regard.
I still stand by what I said, sure Ian White is a good hockey player but this is a perfect example of buy low/sell high. He was a late round pick by the leafs and the organization got 3 1/2 solid seasons out of him, but honestly I think he has peaked.
Ian White is looking for 3+ million per and Id imagine he wants at least 3 years. In all honesty, id probably sign him to that, but how many times has a guy had a career year in a toronto uniform, signed a big contract and then regressed terribley. Calgary has received a solid moustache in white though, ill miss that the most. Point being, who do you want ont he back end, Phaneuf or White? You add hagman to the deal and you get phaneuf. I do it 100/100.
Dion Phaneuf is not only younger than Ian White, but was a legitmate candidate for team canada and the norris not that long ago. IF I had of said "Ian White for team canada and the norris!" Id have been told to take my blue and white glasses off.
If you break this deal down it really goes like this, Hagman and White for Phaneuf, Stajan for Aullie and Mayers for Sjostrom.
I dont see how toronto can really be hurt from this deal, its not like they could go any lower. They are a last place team with those guys and Phaneuf is the type of player who could reinvigorate the entire club with his intensity, something that is sorley lacking in blue and white. He is not perfect, I dont think anyone is saying he is Nik Lidstrom, but when was the last time a forward on the other team had to keep their head up crossing the red line or think twice about blocking a shot. Phaneuf has those abilities in spades and the leafs needed that badly.
I view this as a win win, I hope the guys in calagry play well and they advance far in the playoffs and I hope Phaneuf can be a force on the toronto blue line for the next decade. I also hope the boston bruins pick a stiff in the 1st round. Patrick Stefan part 2!
One last thing id like to add, all day ive heard stories of western conference players whooping it up with high fives and hell yeas about phaneuf leaving the conference. He was a physical force on that blueline and drove other players nuts. I also like the fact that the east has been a much weaker conference recently and Dion should be able to throw his weight around here as well as he did out west if not better.
Brian Burke should be able to replace the offence lost from Stajan and Hagman in the off season either through free agency or promotion of younger players who step up. I just see no downside to this deal from a toronto perspective.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[quote]Originally posted by willus3
[quote]Originally posted by Beans15
I would full appreciate the crow you may eat if in the next 18-24 months people question how a one-dimensional player gets $6.5 million a season.
One area I think people are grossly underestimating is the impact that Ian White makes. He may not be the flash that Phaneuf is, but in the Leaf games I have watched, he was by far their most intelligent player. And, as one other poster said, plays with a ton of heart. If Sutter doesn't resign him in the off season, this trade will be a huge waste for the Flames.
People are going to quesiton the money he makes no matter what he does, its toronto. It doesnt matter.
I think Kaberle has been better than White overall this year as well, Ian is a close second but we literally would have had half the offence without Tomas. And dont use his +/- against him, everyone is knocking Schenn this year and he is a plus player, plus/minus isnt the be all end all and is often misleading.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 14:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[quote]Originally posted by willus3
[quote]Originally posted by Beans15
I would full appreciate the crow you may eat if in the next 18-24 months people question how a one-dimensional player gets $6.5 million a season.
One area I think people are grossly underestimating is the impact that Ian White makes. He may not be the flash that Phaneuf is, but in the Leaf games I have watched, he was by far their most intelligent player. And, as one other poster said, plays with a ton of heart. If Sutter doesn't resign him in the off season, this trade will be a huge waste for the Flames.
People are going to quesiton the money he makes no matter what he does, its toronto. It doesnt matter.
I think Kaberle has been better than White overall this year as well, Ian is a close second but we literally would have had half the offence without Tomas. And dont use his +/- against him, everyone is knocking Schenn this year and he is a plus player, plus/minus isnt the be all end all and is often misleading.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Agree partially. No one will question Phaneuf's money if he is putting up 20 goals and 60 points a year. However, if the Leafs do not win, then the points really don't matter.
As far as Kaberle, I completely agree. I never said that White was more productive than Kaberle. Offensively, Kaberle is one of the best in the league. However, I also think that Ian White is a better all around defender. Kaberle is pretty one dimensional.
And don't worry about me and +/-. I agree that it too is misleading.
All I am saying is that I think the Leafs will regret this in the long run and I personally believe that Phaneuf is more hype than substance.
But again, I might be wrong too.  |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
I just love how no matter what the leafs do it gets ripped on. Stajan and Hagman were just bums on a crappy team 2 days ago now they are going to take calgary to the stanley cup.... riiiiiight. Matt Stajan is going to be the #1 centre in calgary, yet it was laughable to think of him as a #1 centre in toronto.
Anti leaf bias is just as strong as blue tinted glasses. Dion Phanuef has a new lease on life in toronto and a chance to prove a whole lot of people wrong. The upside on Phaneuf blows away everyone toronto gave up, its not even close.
Ian White was a solid player for us, probably our most consistant, but he was getting top 2 ice time in toronto. How will he react to being the 4-5 guy behind regher and bouwmesster, giordano.
The biggest thing I like about this, it changes the culture in the toronto locker room. Almost all of the guys who have been here through the last 5 years of losing are gone, the JFJ stamp has been erased.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Matt I cant agree with much that you said here. Nowhere did anyone say Stajan for the #1 center, and Hagman has been considered a steady scoring roll player for years. These 2 just aint blue chip. Nobody is suggesting these 2 players are going to take Calgary to the Cup final. They are roll players who score regularly and is exactly what Calgary needs, secondary scoring.
I dont agree that white will be the 4-5 defensman as I think he will be line with the PP1 and the top scoring line when they need a goal. Plus when Calgary lacks forward depth as they did last season/post season, White has proved he can fill that role when needed
I think both teams did just fine, as Phanuef was losing value and Calgary needed to replace scoring depth and PP position(White)
Sjostrom, although a good skater with possibly a good future would have got left behind in Calgary's depth and Now will get lots of playing time in Toronto.
The other player Mayers for Aulie is a wash although Aulie could be a good Prospect which is something Burke and the Leafs are lacking. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:10:52
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I had earlier listed both Sjostrom and Aulie as prospects, not realising Sjostrom has been an NHLer for quite a few years already . . . well, looks like a speedy penalty killer, and of course we all know that is a huge sore spot for the Leafs, so good pick-up. At any rate, he will be a younger version of Primeau who has really disappointed as a pk guy.
That kid Aulie has lots of promise . . . I look at a guy like that as a lower first round pick, at least the equivalent of that.
It's hurtingme big time that I happen tobe overseas right now and can't watch my new Leafs! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
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Phaneuf Traded to Maple Leafs 
