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Guest6840
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 Posted - 03/20/2010 : 12:29:01
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You want to hear laughable, the fact some 'fan' has the gall to compare Ryan Kesler to Mike Richards or Paval Datsuyk. Or the fellow who said that Havlat and Hossa are injury prone so that means Kesler is better. I mean, are you serious?? Kesler does not belong in the same phrase as Hossa!! If we are talking about laughable let's call a spade a spade.
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You can easily compare him to Datsyuk Defensively; Kesler is a first liner on over 50% of the NHL teams and a good one at that. I will show a comparison of Datsyuk and Kesler (my opinion) Clear victory= (domination)
Offensive positioning= Datsyuk
Defensive Posistioning= Datsyuk
Shot power= Kesler (Domination)
Shot Accuracy= Datsyuk
Dangling= Datsyuk (Epic Domination)
Poke Check= Kesler
Body Check= Kesler (Domination)
Fighting= Both fail
PP= Datsyuk (Domination)
PK= Kesler
Cooperation= Kesler
Consistency every year= Datsyuk (Domination)
Consistency this year= Kesler
Better Team= Kesler
Winner= Datsyuk. (domination)
Oh look I compared them yet Datsyuk still came out better; for all i care you can compare Ovechkin too Shawn Thornton. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 12:36:53
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From Alex116:
quote:
Bos.....P. Bergeron 5mil the past 3 seasons, 5.75 next season cap hit 4.75
He's a center, so's Savard. One must assume Bergeron's the second line C, except maybe at times like now, when Savard's out?
NYR....O. Jokinen. 5.25 the past 2 and 5.5 this year. Or is Drury the second liner here? I could throw his numbers out there if you want?
Dal....B. Richards makes 7+, Ribiero makes 5. Both centers, do both play first line roles?
Det....Datsyuk and Z often play on separate lines. Very much like Forsberg and Sakic did back in the day.
Mtl...Gomez, Gionta and Cammy all make 5 or more! Yes, they all play together sometimes, but often one of them's a second liner.
NJ....Elias makes 6mil. He's a LW, so's Parise. I think Parise's the first liner, no?
Phi....Briere, Richards and Carter are all listed as C's. Even if they all play first line, that leaves Gagne to play line 2. Oh, and all 4 get 5+
Pitt...need i mention who their top 2 C's are or what they make?
*Please note, i'm not in any way saying Kesler is or isn't as good as these guys, just trying to show you that your statement isn't accurate. I could even argue a guy like Kariya is pretty much a second liner making 6 mil but i won't go there. Or, that guys like Lecavalier who is more or less the second liner there now thanks to Stamkos but i guess it could be argued that once Stamkos is up for renewal, they're highly unlikely to keep Lecavalier at those dollars, right?
Thanks Alex, I didn't have time to look this all up last night, but knew it was the case. I think the whole premise of a "top line" and "second line" has been replaced with "top 6 forward", that is interchangeable on either the first or second line - most of the teams you mention move players around depending on how they are doing (Canucks included). Kesler is undeniably a top-6 forward, on any team in the NHL. Hence the money.
quote:
Or how bout one with "Selke" in the same sentence as Vermette?
"Vermette has not ever been nominated for the Selke trophy"  |
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Guest0959
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Posted - 03/20/2010 : 14:13:47
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But Beans, that's exactly it.
Fisher and Michalek make ~$750k less than Kesler. My position is that he is worth the extra cash. Not head and shoulders above them, but about $750k above them. As someone put it after me, right now, out of these three, I choose Kesler hands down. (see head and shoulders above).
I know this is Kes's best year to date, but look at their numbers for this year (on playoff teams):
Kes: 21G, 66pts, +3
Michalek: 22G, 34pts, -11
Fisher: 22G, 48pts, +7
Tell you me you don't take Kesler. All these guys penalty kill, they all play hard and they all have speed. They all play with grit, are responsible (maybe not Michalek) and are solidified 2nd liners. Now tell me Kesler's 20 extra assists aren't worth $750k.
Look, it's ok not to like him. But his salary is NOT unreasonable. It is roughly at market value.
(numbers fellow)
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Guest9494
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Posted - 03/20/2010 : 15:24:42
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| sounds like a hanley argument...when given all points that prove kessler is worth it. guy entering his prime solid 2 way player a gritty player reminds me of smyth cept for chippier and wayyyy faster |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 15:49:04
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My take is that 5 mil is too much but its more becuase of the term of the contract compared to the longevity of players like Kesler. It's not necessarily that he will have injuries problems, but will he be able to play at that level for the next 6 years? He's a Mike Peca/Dary Tucker type guy and they seem to have a short effective lifespan because they take such a beating infront of the net and in the corners.
70 pts a year isnt worth $5 mil in my opinion. It seems like a knee-jerk signing on the Canucks part. IThat being said there are much worse contracts out there than this so its certainly not something that will immediately choke the Canucks, ... but if his play falls off you might have a Jason Blake scenario on your hands. |
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Guest0959
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Posted - 03/20/2010 : 16:06:49
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[Mod Edit - Content Removed]
The best years of the players you compared Kesler are:
Tucker 74GP 61pts -12. (next best total: 35 pts in 77. He's a career -89).
Peca 80GP 60pts +19. (only one other year with +50pts)
Blake 82GP 69pts +1. (only two seaons +60pts)
None of those players ever had the upside that Kesler does. None of them have ever been close to a PPG player. Kesler has been in the league 6 years and improved in each year. Hardly a knee jerk signing.
Tucker and Blake never had Kesler's defensive awareness and Peca never had his offensive upside. Don't lump him in with Toronto's scraps, even if they are the only players you know. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/20/2010 17:19:00 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 16:39:50
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Geez, why is it so hard for people to understand a simple point??
I know there are tons of teams that have legitimate 1st line players playing on their 2nd and 3rd line because of depth. But that players on most other teams is a 1st line player!!
This is not a comparison of player vs player. We could argue that until we are blue in the face. People are splitting hair's here. I don't care if you think Kesler is better than Michalek or Fisher, or Eriksson, et al. The point is that the are comparable.
Kesler is comparable to elite 2nd line players in the NHL today. No doubt about it. He is not comparabe to elite or even above average 1st line players in the NHL. Those are the guys making $5 million a season!
Now, to try to hopefully look at things objectively, let's look at the top 2 centres for every NHL team and I will put my opinion where Kesler would be if he became part of that team. (All players being healthy)
Tor - Bozak and Grabovski - Kesler is #1, hands down
Atl-Antropov and White - Kesler is most likely #1
Cal - Stajan and Langkow - Kesler is #1
Edm - Horcoff and Gagner - Kesler is #1
NJ - Zajac and Zubrus - Kesler is #2, maybe #1
NYI - Weight and Park - Kesler is #2, maybe #1
NYR-Jokinen and Christianson - Kesler is #2, maybe #1
CBJ - Vermette and Brassard - Kelser is #2, maybe #1
PHO - Lang and Lombardi - Kesler is #2, maybe #1
Buff - Roy and Connelly - Kesler is maybe #2
Car- Staal and Sutter - Kesler is #2
Wash - Backstrom and Belanger - Kesler is #2
Nash - Arnott and Legwand - Kesler is #2
STL - Backes and Tkachuk/Bergland - Kesler is #2
Col - Stastny - Duchene/O'Reilly - Kesler is #2(for now)
Van - Obviously #2
Ana - Getzlaf and Koivu - Kesler is #2
Ott- Spezza and Fisher - Kesler is #2, maybe #3
Fla - Weiss and Horton - Kesler is #2, maybe #3
Chi - Toews and Bolland/Versteeg - Kesler is #2, maybe #3
Minn - Koivu and PM Bouchard - Kesler is #2, maybe #3
LA - Kopitar and Handzus - Kesler is #2, maybe #3
Mont - Plekanec and Gomez - Kesler is #3, maybe #2
SJ - Thornton and Pavalski - Kesler is #3, maybe #2
Philly - Richards and Carter - Kesler is #3
Bos - Savard and Bergeron - Kesler is #3
TB - Stamkos and Lecavalier - Kesler is #3
Det - Datsuyk and Zetterberg - Kesler is #3
Dallas - Richards and Riberio - Kesler is #3
Pitt - Crosby, Malkin, Staal - Kesler is #4, maybe #3
So, Kelser would be
The #1 centre on 4 teams in the league
The #2 centre on 18 teams in the league
The #3 centre on 7 teams in the league
The #4 centre on 1 team in the league
It's easy to see that Kesler is very legitimately a #2 centre on most teams in the league. But by my math, he is more likely to be a #3 centre than a #1 centre.
How many LEGITIMATE #2 centres in the NHL are making $5 million a season??
Why is that point so difficult?? |
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Guest0935
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Posted - 03/20/2010 : 17:13:42
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[Mod Edit - quote removed]
I don't like the Leafs or their fans neither but calling someone an idiot because you disagree with them actually weakens your argument. Google "ad hominem".
That said, Kesler is a killer in the faceoff circle, one of the best two-way players in the game with improving offensive abilities while pplaying on the 2nd line. He's the kind of guy you love on your team, but hate otherwise. He'll probably never be an elite offensive talent but if the Canucks can get 70 points from him reliably, he'll be worth the $5M.
How many guys out there are making $5M+ and not even getting the points Kesler is? Drury? Gomez? Erat? Legwand? Those guys aren't as good in the offensive zone and not nearly as good in the defensive end. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/20/2010 17:20:18 |
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Guest0959
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Posted - 03/20/2010 : 17:21:14
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Beans, I disagree with a lot of your "rankings."
But rather than redo the whole list, I'm just going to point out the easiest one. SJ. Pavalski played further down the team USA depth chart than Kesler did. Kesler also out scored him. Therefore, Kesler is #2. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 17:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0935
[Mod Edit - quote removed]
I don't like the Leafs or their fans neither but calling someone an idiot because you disagree with them actually weakens your argument. Google "ad hominem".
That said, Kesler is a killer in the faceoff circle, one of the best two-way players in the game with improving offensive abilities while pplaying on the 2nd line. He's the kind of guy you love on your team, but hate otherwise. He'll probably never be an elite offensive talent but if the Canucks can get 70 points from him reliably, he'll be worth the $5M.
How many guys out there are making $5M+ and not even getting the points Kesler is? Drury? Gomez? Erat? Legwand? Those guys aren't as good in the offensive zone and not nearly as good in the defensive end.
Wow. Sounds a lot like a guy I have watched a ton. He was played great hockey. Not only his teams best defensive player and penalty killer. We was really developing an offensive game as well. One season of 70+ points, the next 50 in an injury shortened 53 games. Then, another 50+ point season and his teams best player.
He then signed a 6 year deal around $35 million.
He is no one of the worst +/- players in the league and not ranked in any statistically catagory higher than 166th!! His team is also dead last in the NHL.
Shawn Horcoff anyone???
Kesler's contract is only value if he is a PPG player(or close to it) each year and the team succeeds.
Until then............................. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 17:36:49
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Beans, again interesting opinion on where he'd fit in on other teams. I don't agree with some of them, but that prob doesn't shock you now does it? 
I'm not here to try to tell you he'd be #1 in Pittsburgh or Philly or some of the obvious ones, but....quote:
But by my math, he is more likely to be a #3 centre than a #1 centre.
WTF? You can't be serious. Clearly math wasn't your strongest subject back in school. Keep in mind, it's difficult to compare where a guy would be slotted in on another team. IMO, he'd play #1 in Jersey with Parise on his wing (ahead of Zajac). However, maybe he wouldn't "click" with Zach? It took Zajac a few years to develop the chemistry he has with Parise, no? So, as difficult as it is to predict how well he'd do, i'll have a go at it myself and we can compare our opinions!
Tor - Bozak and Grabovski - Kesler is #1, hands down Agree
Atl-Antropov and White - Kesler is most likely #1 Agree, but more than likely
Cal - Stajan and Langkow - Kesler is #1 Agree
Edm - Horcoff and Gagner - Kesler is #1 Agree, as much as you'd hate it
NJ - Zajac and Zubrus - Kesler is #2, maybe #1 disagree, it's too close to compare these guys (Kes and Zajac, not Zubrus). Kesler could just as easily be the #1 as he could the #2
NYI - Weight and Park - Kesler is #2, maybe #1 disagree, btw, i have Park as a RW? Tavares would be the other C at this point and i think at this point Kesler would be ahead of him, maybe not for long?
NYR-Jokinen and Christianson - Kesler is #2, maybe #1 Agree, but like the NJ one, it's close between he and Jokinen
CBJ - Vermette and Brassard - Kelser is #2, maybe #1 disagree, but again, it'd be up to the chemistry, this one like Jersey would be a toss up
PHO - Lang and Lombardi - Kesler is #2, maybe #1 strongly disagree, Lang was a 4th liner in Mtl last year and Lombardi is a similar player to Kesler. Kesler would be ahead of him almost for certain!
Buff - Roy and Connelly - Kesler is maybe #2 disagree, only because you imply that he could possibly by the #3? Not a chance of that. He'd surely be a 1 or a 2
Car- Staal and Sutter - Kesler is #2 agree fully
Wash - Backstrom and Belanger - Kesler is #2 agree fully
Nash - Arnott and Legwand - Kesler is #2 I'll agree, but another one that'd be up to chemistry if he were there.
STL - Backes and Tkachuk/Bergland - Kesler is #2 Hmm, another close one, i'll have to disagree only because Tkachuk is 1000 years old and Backes has yet to come close to living up to potential.
Col - Stastny - Duchene/O'Reilly - Kesler is #2(for now) Agree
Van - Obviously #2 Agree
Ana - Getzlaf and Koivu - Kesler is #2 Agree
Ott- Spezza and Fisher - Kesler is #2, maybe #3 Agree, but not many teams would carry Kesler and Fisher as a 2/3 combo with the money they'd cost
Fla - Weiss and Horton - Kesler is #2, maybe #3 I'll agree with this, but it's another close one. He could just as easily be the #1 as the #3 though.
Chi - Toews and Bolland/Versteeg - Kesler is #2, maybe #3 Strongly disagree! #3??? No chance! #1, nope, guess that leaves the 2?
Minn - Koivu and PM Bouchard - Kesler is #2, maybe #3 Disagree, see previous one. PM Bouchard? LOL.
LA - Kopitar and Handzus - Kesler is #2, maybe #3 This is getting repetetive, see line above, and above that! Handzus?
Mont - Plekanec and Gomez - Kesler is #3, maybe #2 I'll reluctantly agree but likely the Habs wouldn't have gone after Gomez if they had Kes. AND, no one saw the breakout year from Plekanec coming after the way he played last year!
SJ - Thornton and Pavalski - Kesler is #3, maybe #2 disagree, likely he'd be #2
Philly - Richards and Carter - Kesler is #3 Agree fully though there'd prob be a shift to wing for one of these guys to keep them all in the top six, or a trade.
Bos - Savard and Bergeron - Kesler is #3 AgreeTB - Stamkos and Lecavalier - Kesler is #3 Agree, but like i said before, no way Lecavalier sticks around TBay at that dollar figure with Stamkos emerging as the star!
Det - Datsuyk and Zetterberg - Kesler is #3 Disagree, okay, i'm kidding! I agree....
Dallas - Richards and Riberio - Kesler is #3 Agree, but it's arguable that some teams would take Kesler over Ribiero if given the choice.
Pitt - Crosby, Malkin, Staal - Kesler is #4, maybe #3 Would never happen, but for the point you're trying to make, i agree.
So, like i said, very tough to predict this stuff cuz you wouldn't fine teams going after Kesler for the purpose of him being a third and especially not a fourth liner! Anyway, do your math now and see what it comes out to? I would, but i don't have the time, going out for the night....... (keep in mind, these are just our opinions of where he'd fit in, right?).
What it really boils down to is this. One of us a couple years from now can look at the other and say "na na na na na na.....told you". If he becomes a bust or a Jason Blake like return on the money, you'll have me! If he continues to produce like he is this year and / or improves over the course of the contract, i'll be so happy, i'll try to not rub it in! My opinion though is that if he were given an offer sheet, it'd be in the 4.5-5.5 million range. Look what Philly did last time? Look at his numbers then. Many were shocked the Canucks matched. Many Canuck fans are happy now that they did!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 18:11:44
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quote:
It's easy to see that Kesler is very legitimately a #2 centre on most teams in the league. But by my math, he is more likely to be a #3 centre than a #1 centre.
How many LEGITIMATE #2 centres in the NHL are making $5 million a season??
Beans, the problem with your rankings is that you're assuming that all teams would add Kesler and not remove someone existing. On teams where you've ranked him #1, he most likely would be the #1 centre - because there is no one else to fill that role and the team would be acquiring him to be the #1 centre. For teams where he is the #2 centre, well they're up for debate, in some cases I agree in others I don't.
For those teams where you've slotted him #3, it doesn't matter, because that team is not acquiring him - they are already deep enough at C. To say he's a #3 centre with TB makes no sense, as TB would not pick him up without getting rid of one of Stamkos or Lecavalier - thus making him the defacto #2 C on that team. DET/DAL/PIT all fall into that category.
I'll say it again - Kesler is a bonafide "top 6 forward" in the NHL - when I say bonafide, I mean that ANY team acquiring him would be getting him to be one of their regular top 6 forwards (yes, even your Oilers). That type of forward commands around 5M per year in today's NHL. Whether he is the #1 or #2 centre is not really relevant.
quote:
Wow. Sounds a lot like a guy I have watched a ton
Yeah, I was wondering when you'd pull out the the Kesler-situation-is-just-like-Horcoff argument. Horcoff had one good year, and EDM was in the unfortunate situation where that year was a contract year. Not the same situation - if Kesler were in that situation now, Vancouver would not have locked him up for 5 years, they would have done a 2 year deal to see where it goes. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 21:27:18
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I can certainly see similarities in most of Beans comparison players.
However, each player is different. No one player exactly the same, nor one player worth exactly the same, to every team in the league.
Perhaps most teams in the league, would not pay $5M for Kesler. But, I do feel that he's worth the $5M on the Canucks lineup.
He fits nicely there. He plays well in the Canucks system, which I believe makes him more valuable to the Canucks than let's say... Ottawa. Would Ottawa pay him $5M per year? Very unlikely. Because they have Spezza & Fisher at Center, on their top two lines.
But he fits the role in Vancouver that he has been given, and he does it well. Making him a valuable asset to Vancouver. And perhaps, his salary a little higher when compared to other players of his 'caliber', or when compared to if he were on another team.
They are paying a single player, $5M to fill multipul roles. He fills the role of secondary scoring, gritty, agitator, checker, penalty killer, power play... etc...
Where as they may be paying less, to another play, with only 2/3 of the ability to fill as many roles.
What I am getting at is... we can compare Kesler to other players and or the Canucks to other teams all night long. But each team, and each individual player, may be worth more to certain teams than others. And Kesler at the $5Mil range, isn't overly absurd. I figured him at $4.0 - $4.2 million per season, and he's at $5.
Not like he made a huge salary jump, from I believe most expected.
Irvine/prez. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 08:32:11
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Firstly, Alex116. Thanks for helping my prove my point. You made some adjustments, which I expects, and most of them were into the #2 line centre position. Again, how many legitimate 2nd line centres(not #1 centres playing on the 2nd line) are making $5 million a season?? Comparitivly speaking, how many are making closer to $4 million.
Secondly, Guest who said that if Kesler went to another team, most likely one of their top 2 centre would be gone. Again, true, but that has nothing to do with my point. You are arguing that Kesler is a top 6 forwards in the NHL and he absolutely is. However, in terms of his natural position, he is a 2nd line players, and in terms of overall top 6 forwards, I would suggest he is top 3 on about 10 teams in the league and a top on every single team in the league. Again, how many 2nd line players are making $5 million a season??
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
What I am getting at is... we can compare Kesler to other players and or the Canucks to other teams all night long. But each team, and each individual player, may be worth more to certain teams than others. And Kesler at the $5Mil range, isn't overly absurd. I figured him at $4.0 - $4.2 million per season, and he's at $5.
Irvine/prez.
Completely agree with Irvine here. Maybe I was a little over agreesive in saying that he was way overpaid, but I just can't see how people lack the ability to see that he outside of his group in regards to pay. He right number for his is closer to $4 million, not $5 million. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 08:51:40
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Alex, I would appreciate if you could refrain from the comments such as "Math was not your strong suit." Although I am more than big enough to take the petty personal slights, it is against the forum guidelines and it really starts to undervalue a really great point when it includes a personal dig.
Thanks
Now, to your assessment vs mine. I could agree with some of them. For example, Lang is a really solid hockey player and has proven is over time. Was he the 4th line centre in Montreal?? Not a chance. Nice try thought. However, I can agree with what you are saying. However, there are a few that are off base.
Secondly, in many cases where I had him as, for example #1, maybe #2 or #2, maybe #3 were situations where he would more than likely play in both situations depending the match up the team had or how the team was rolling. When a line up is shaken up type of thing.
Finally, the team USA thing is pretty valid, however it depends on perspective. He played well and take nothing away, but to make a comment like Pavelski was behind him in the depth chart on team USA so he would be ahead of him in SJ. That's coaching dependent as selection dependent.
Here are a couple of head scratchers:
-Connelly and Pominville are both excellent hockey players that I simple believe you have not watched much. I might agree that Kesler would be AS good, but to say he is significantly better is not even close.
-Tkachuk - Remember I said Healthy. Healthy Ktachuk still has the skills. Just last year he had 27 goals and 58 points.
-Versteeg is a great hockey player. Maybe in a bit of a sophmore slump, but he will be over 20 goals for his first 2 seasons. Also 53 pts as a rookie. This is not as hands down as you think.
-PM Bouchard - 3 seasons of more than 50 points, one season of more than 60 points, an 'off year' of 46 points and then he missed the entire season due to a concussion. Does that production not sound errily similar to Kesler. One is not head and shoulders over the other.
Regardless, as I said before, your assessments also has him, in the vast majority of the teams in the NHL, as a #2 centre. That was my point all along. If this is the changing of the guard and a #2 line centre is now a $5 million player, so be it. However, today, the majority of #2 centres are closer to $4 million players.
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Guest0677
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 09:36:17
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I'm a Canucks fan and frankly I'm disappointed at the 5 mill/year but happy about the long contract. Kesler should have signed for somewhere in the 4-4.5 range imho in order to get the long contract. While I think he's a #1 center on many teams and #2 on pretty much any of them, and he brings a huge defensive side to his game, great PK, etc, the fact remains that Burrows probably took a significant home team discount and Kesler didn't. Despite words to the contrary. The Sedins took less money to stay together and stay in Vancouver. Vancouver is leaving themselves in a tough cap situation by signing this many long term big contracts.
Only time will tell, but I have no idea how the Canucks will field a team of the same caliber in the future with their diminishing cap unless an awful lot of their prospects do as well as hoped. |
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Guest0636
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 09:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Actually Beans, looking at that list I'd certainly take Kesler over Erat, Pominville, Gionta and perhaps Connolly since he's an injury case. After the season and the Olympics Kesler has had he would certainly get at least $5 a year as a UFA. To be honest he was one of the top three most effective Team USA forwards, in my opinion. He plays well two-ways, gets under people's skin (including Beans', apparently) and has that 'sandpaper' quality GM's long for.
If Van made a mistake its not offering him one of those ridiculous 10 year deals where they give him the same money but the cap hit is reduced. It is a bit of a loophole in the system and GM's should take advantage of it to sign young stars while they still can.
That is why you and I are not GM's. Firstly, one would expect a player on a team of the best of the best of the best to perform.
Secondly, no player gets $5 million based on a 2 week tourney. Thirdly, Pominville and Connelly are both far superior player to Kesler. Both have proven to be PPG players regardless of who they play with. Erat may be on his way down but Gionta is also a 40 goal scorer.
As I said, $5 million is elite level money, and Kesler just isn't elite level in my books.
And sandpaper quality?? Morrow and Doan have sandpaper quality. Kelser has D-Bag quality. Huge difference.
i know you will prolly delete this but the only [Mod Edit - You are right, personal attacks are against the forum guidelines]. For a moderator you need to stop calling out players as douche bags because all it does is shame this forum. think before you make these idiot comments man. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/21/2010 10:11:35 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 10:15:11
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It is painfully obvious that some do not understand the role of a moderator. The role is not to agree with everyone's opinion. The role is to ensure the guidelines of the forum are followed, to remove spam, and to report unsavoury issues to Admin.
That's what I do.
As far as my opinions about Kesler or anyone else, I have every right to post them as long as they are within the forum rules. I think that Kesler is a mouth piece, a guy who takes liberties with the rules behind the refs backs, and plays the game like a jerk.
I think it's completely awesome that it gets under people's skin when I say it too!!  |
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Guest6840
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 13:12:27
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Tor - Bozak and Grabovski - Kesler is #1, hands down/ agree
Atl-Antropov and White - Kesler is most likely #1/ agree
Cal - Stajan and Langkow - Kesler is #1/ agree
Edm - Horcoff and Gagner - Kesler is #1/ agree
NJ - Zajac and Zubrus - Kesler is #2, maybe #1/ agree
NYI - Weight and Park - Kesler is #2, maybe #1/ #1 no doubt
NYR-Jokinen and Christianson - Kesler is #2, maybe #1/ #1
CBJ - Vermette and Brassard - Kelser is #2, maybe #1/ #1
PHO - Lang and Lombardi - Kesler is #2, maybe #1/ #1
Buff - Roy and Connelly - Kesler is maybe #2/ 1 or 2
Car- Staal and Sutter - Kesler is #2/ agree
Wash - Backstrom and Belanger - Kesler is #2/agree
Nash - Arnott and Legwand - Kesler is #2/ #1
STL - Backes and Tkachuk/Bergland - Kesler is #2/ #1
Col - Stastny - Duchene/O'Reilly - Kesler is #2(for now)/agree
Van - Obviously #2
Ana - Getzlaf and Koivu - Kesler is #2/agree
Ott- Spezza and Fisher - Kesler is #2, maybe #3/ #2 maybe # 1
Fla - Weiss and Horton - Kesler is #2, maybe #3/ #1
Chi - Toews and Bolland/Versteeg - Kesler is #2, maybe #3/ Likely #1 maybe #2
Minn - Koivu and PM Bouchard - Kesler is #2, maybe #3/ #2 maybe #1
LA - Kopitar and Handzus - Kesler is #2, maybe #3/ #2 maybe moved to winger
Mont - Plekanec and Gomez - Kesler is #3, maybe #2/ #1 hands down
SJ - Thornton and Pavalski - Kesler is #3, maybe #2/ #2
Philly - Richards and Carter - Kesler is #3/ #1 maybe #2
Bos - Savard and Bergeron - Kesler is #3/ #2
TB - Stamkos and Lecavalier - Kesler is #3/ #2
Det - Datsuyk and Zetterberg - Kesler is #3/ #2
Dallas - Richards and Riberio - Kesler is #3/ #1
Pitt - Crosby, Malkin, Staal - Kesler is #4, maybe #3/ #2 maybe #3
also Kesler is a Versatile player so he plays left wing also; causing him to be on the first line of many teams. But i agree that he is a little over payed, yet he has Bonuses included so he doesn't get full pay unless he produces.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 20:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Firstly, Alex116. Thanks for helping my prove my point.
LOL, i give you my opinion which is that Kelser would likely be a first line center on 11 or 12 teams, and that proves your point? Too funny.
As for my commenting on your math skills, is that considered a personal attack? Is that why it's against the forum guidlines or rules? Personal, i wouldn't think so and i've seen you throw out comments in a similar fashion but those are ok? Is that cuz you wear your moderator cape? The only reason it was wrong is that you math actually was ok. If your opinion was the law, then your math would add up that Kesler's closer to a 3rd liner than a 1st liner. Unfortunately, your opinion is not the law and therefore your math skills really don't matter.
As for Lang being a 4th liner in Monreal, i wasn't all that far off. He was brought in to be the 3rd liner actually, and actually was demoted to the 4th line part way into his injury reduced season in Montreal. Either way, Kesler would play ahead of this guy on ANY team.
I'm not in the mood to discuss or counter your opinions on the players which left you "scratching your head" so lemme summerize by saying this: Much like nuxfan stated, Kesler is a bonafide top 6 forward on not just the Canucks, but pretty much any team. It's difficult to compare where he'd play on other teams as it's so much speculation and it's therefore not worth it.
Like i said before, i'd have preferred for the Canucks to have gotten him signed in the 4.5 range but if he continues to play the way he has this year and last, 5 will be okay with me. I know it's an "if", like the situation with Horcoff proves, but unfortunately teams don't always have the luxury of waiting to see if a guy keeps up his pace. Had they gone to arbitration, they'd have likely had to pay close to the money he's getting AND they'd have a guy who would likely be very much less satisfied that the organization undervalued his services. They now have a very happy camper, but yes, it is a gamble, ALWAYS is. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 20:56:18
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Seriously, what an amazing waste of time!! Unfortunately, there is nothing better to discuss than this, so I will continue.
Where did I ever say that Kesler is not a top 6 forward on every team in the NHL??
We have a serious difference of opinion. You honestly think that there are 11-12 teams in the NHL where Kesler would step directly in as their #1 centre??? And I am the one thinking with a Bias??
Even if your opinion was valid, 11-12 teams as a #1 means on 18-19 teams he is a #2 centre. Name me one LEGITIMATE #2 centre in the NHL that is making $5 million??
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Guest2114
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:03:38
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| Malkin. You lose Beans. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2114
Malkin. You lose Beans.
It appears that my meaning of 'legitimate' was missed.
Malkin, on pretty much every team in the NHL outside of maybe Pitt, Wash, and SJ, is a #1 centre. That makes him a legitimate #1 centre playing on a team with 2-legitimate #1 centres.
To give you some examples of some #2 centres:
Mike Fisher, Joe Pavelski, Scott Gomez, Tim Connelly, Saku Koivu, Kris Versteeg, etc.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:25:26
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Beans:
quote:
Where did I ever say that Kesler is not a top 6 forward on every team in the NHL??
By putting Kesler as a 3rd line centre on any team, you have defacto taken him out of the "top 6".
quote:
It appears that my meaning of 'legitimate' was missed.
Malkin, on pretty much every team in the NHL outside of maybe Pitt, Wash, and SJ, is a #1 centre. That makes him a legitimate #1 centre playing on a team with 2-legitimate #1 centres.
To give you some examples of some #2 centres:
Mike Fisher, Joe Pavelski, Scott Gomez, Tim Connelly, Saku Koivu, Kris Versteeg, etc.
Your meaning of "legitimate" was just ill-used. For example, your list of #2 centres - all of them are instant 3rd line centres on the Canucks, as we already have a #2 centre that is better than them. So, are they still "legitimate #2 centres"? Or are they legit #2's in certain situations for certain teams?
Malkin is a #1 centre on any team in the NHL, except PIT (I even think he supplants Thorton and Backstrom on their respective teams). |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:31:33
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quote:
[i] Name me one LEGITIMATE #2 centre in the NHL that is making $5 million??
Okay, how about Scott Gomez? Gomez is making 8mil this season and is a cap hit of 7.357mil over the contract length. And to think, you even listed him as one of your examples. Thanks for saving me the time of going through all the teams!
Now you'll prob tell me i'm wrong cuz 8 isn't 5? 
EDITED TO ADD:
How 'bout Marleau in SJ? Yeah, he's playing wing this year, but when he was signed he was the #2 center and that clearly was his role. Oh, and he's making 6.3.
I'd throw Lecavalier in there too but i suppose he'd be a #1 on most other teams, but not as many as Malkin.
Datsyuk / Z? Same as above i suppose?
I did mention the Briere / Richards / Carter log jam in Philly too, i'd say this would qualify easily as well.
Drury and Jokinen? One of them must be the #2, no?
Mike Ribiero / Brad Richards?
Colorado will be paying Duchesne eventually, and it'll be over 5 almost certainly.
Is that enough examples? |
Edited by - Alex116 on 03/21/2010 21:57:41 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Seriously, what an amazing waste of time!! Unfortunately, there is nothing better to discuss than this, so I will continue.
Where did I ever say that Kesler is not a top 6 forward on every team in the NHL??
I don't think you did, and if that's what you thought i was implying, i wasn't. I was just summerizing my thoughts and stating my opinion. My apology if it came out wrong.
quote:
We have a serious difference of opinion. You honestly think that there are 11-12 teams in the NHL where Kesler would step directly in as their #1 centre??? And I am the one thinking with a Bias??
Not necessarily do i "think" he'd step into the #1 role on 11 or 12 teams, but there are a few i know he would. The others, as i stated, i feel he likely would be the #1. But, like i clearly said, chemistry has a lot of weight in decisions which ultimately would be made by the coach. If Kesler was traded to Chicago, i'd still say Toews would be the #1, BUT, if his chemistry with Kane clicked like it did here in Vancouver during the Olympics, he'd prob center Kane's line. THEN, which line would you call the #1, Kane's with Kesler at center or Toews center Hossa or whoever else? Either way, i'd still consider Toews a better player but do you see how easily he could be a second line center? Someone touched on this earlier about how teams nowadays try to have two good solid scoring lines and that's why #2 guys can be difficult to determine.
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Guest2114
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 21:47:09
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Oh right, I'm sorry Beans, only you can use sarcasm.
Fine, Malkin while playing on the second line, is not a 2nd line center. Semantics.
Bergeron. $4.75 this year, $5 next.
Riberio $5/Richards $7.8
Zetterburg $6/Datsyuk $6.7
Horcoff $5.5 (cap hit)
Gomez $7.3
Drury $7
Carter $5
Malkin $8.7
Pavelski = RFA/Marleau $6.3
(nhlnumbers.com)
Kesler is 25th in the league in pts. Not to mention his intangibles.
His 66 pts puts him squarly ahead of ALL of those players besides Richards, Marleau and Malkin.
That is elite company. And $5 million company, regardless of the line he plays on.
Face it Beans; admit you're wrong, this year he has earned his $5M. Time will tell if the future years pay off as well, but for this year, that is EXACTLY where he should be. |
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Guest6393
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 22:07:34
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Just like to quickly throw in; 5M per sounds high at first, but all things taken into account, he's a top 6 forward, top faceoff man and plays responsibly and is in the prime of his career. 5M is not out of the question.
You guys are arguing over a difference 500k-1M per? Really? 2 pages to say he can get paid anywhere from 4-5M?
I think you all need to take a step back and think about what you're fighting over. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 22:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2114
Oh right, I'm sorry Beans, only you can use sarcasm.
Fine, Malkin while playing on the second line, is not a 2nd line center. Semantics.
Bergeron. $4.75 this year, $5 next.
Riberio $5/Richards $7.8
Zetterburg $6/Datsyuk $6.7
Horcoff $5.5 (cap hit)
Gomez $7.3
Drury $7
Carter $5
Malkin $8.7
Pavelski = RFA/Marleau $6.3
(nhlnumbers.com)
Kesler is 25th in the league in pts. Not to mention his intangibles.
His 66 pts puts him squarly ahead of ALL of those players besides Richards, Marleau and Malkin.
That is elite company. And $5 million company, regardless of the line he plays on.
Face it Beans; admit you're wrong, this year he has earned his $5M. Time will tell if the future years pay off as well, but for this year, that is EXACTLY where he should be.
As having to repeat myself is the theme of the day, as I said in the past, if he is a PPG player for the next 5 seasons, then the deal is absolutely dead on. But if not, it's a la Horcoff. Remember that guy, great in the face off circle. 70 pt. season, all the intangibles??
Right, that doesn't count. Kesler can't possibly be compared to Horcoff could he?? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 22:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6393
Just like to quickly throw in; 5M per sounds high at first, but all things taken into account, he's a top 6 forward, top faceoff man and plays responsibly and is in the prime of his career. 5M is not out of the question.
You guys are arguing over a difference 500k-1M per? Really? 2 pages to say he can get paid anywhere from 4-5M?
I think you all need to take a step back and think about what you're fighting over.
I know what you mean by this but think about it, and you'll see it's what the issue is. If he'd signed for 4 or 4.2, we prob wouldn't be having this debate. Well, you never know, some might still be going on about Kesler not being worth even that much? 500k-1mil is a lot of money as far as a contract is concerned especially in the salary cap era.
guest2114, looks like we were doing the same research around the same time! Bergeron is actually 5 mil this year, 5.75 next year but is only a 4.75mil cap hit. He signed a 23.75 mil 5 year deal back in 06 that paid him 3, 5, 5, 5, and finally 5.75 next year. I agree he's another example, i just didn't throw him on my list figuring Beans would be picky and not count him as a 5 mil guy |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 22:46:58
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All I've got to say is, unless Kesler improves his points totals, he will not live up to this contract. In fact, look at his point totals, they are earily reminiscent of contract gaffe Shawn Horcoff:
(already compared somewhere in the mire above, interesting when looking at pts totals)
Horcoff's points:
16pts 00/01
22pts 01/02
33pts 02/03
40pts 03/04
73pts 05/06 Gets big contract!(this year or next, someone correct me)
51pts 06/07
50pts 07/08
53pts 08/09
28pts so far this year....
Kesler:
5pts 03/04
23pts 05/06
16pts 06/07
37pts 07/08
59pts 08/09
66pts so far and big contract...
I really think the comparison has legitimate similarities: at the time of the contract hard-working two way players, still overpaying for the offense, face it, forwards are payed mostly for their offense in the NHL. If he manages to get 82pts per season(ppg player) then you'd still be paying him $60000 per pt. (If the sedin's manage to keep scoring around 100(which daniel would have got too had he not got injured), they also get around $60000 per pt. Is Kesler Sedin caliber?
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Edited by - polishexpress on 03/21/2010 22:53:41 |
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Guest6393
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 23:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6393
Just like to quickly throw in; 5M per sounds high at first, but all things taken into account, he's a top 6 forward, top faceoff man and plays responsibly and is in the prime of his career. 5M is not out of the question.
You guys are arguing over a difference 500k-1M per? Really? 2 pages to say he can get paid anywhere from 4-5M?
I think you all need to take a step back and think about what you're fighting over.
I know what you mean by this but think about it, and you'll see it's what the issue is. If he'd signed for 4 or 4.2, we prob wouldn't be having this debate. Well, you never know, some might still be going on about Kesler not being worth even that much? 500k-1mil is a lot of money as far as a contract is concerned especially in the salary cap era.
guest2114, looks like we were doing the same research around the same time! Bergeron is actually 5 mil this year, 5.75 next year but is only a 4.75mil cap hit. He signed a 23.75 mil 5 year deal back in 06 that paid him 3, 5, 5, 5, and finally 5.75 next year. I agree he's another example, i just didn't throw him on my list figuring Beans would be picky and not count him as a 5 mil guy
At the same time though, it's easy to make up 500k-1M in other areas. Sticking to the Canucks, they've probably already saved that (and more) on the Sedins at 6M per each. If you try to short every single contract, you will probably end up with no players.
Thing is, the Canucks and many other teams, sometimes pay a bit over on some guys and a bit low on others. It kinda evens out and the ones you pay over on are always a gamble. Sometimes it works out really well, if as Beans pointed out he becomes a PPG player. If not, you've overpaid on a guy who didn't pan out.
You can pull all your stats and examples of "look at this overpaid guy that didn't work out!" but that's after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 and you can only judge the signing based on the current environment and your opinion of future play. in most instances, it probably won't pan out, but that doesn't mean you never overpay a guy, especially if the difference amounts to 1M or less.
Bottom line for the Canucks is this. You got a guy worth in the range of 4-5M that plays his heart out and wants to stay with the team. He's only 25 and has some upside and has been your bona fide #2 center and one of your best 2-way forwards. How do you justify holding out over 500k-1M? What kind of message does that send out?
Beans, your bias is affecting your view here and that's OK. Player value is based on opinion and if it is not favourable, then you won't justify the expense. If you like him, you will justify it. |
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Guest6393
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Posted - 03/21/2010 : 23:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
All I've got to say is, unless Kesler improves his points totals, he will not live up to this contract. In fact, look at his point totals, they are earily reminiscent of contract gaffe Shawn Horcoff:
(already compared somewhere in the mire above, interesting when looking at pts totals)
Horcoff's points:
16pts 00/01
22pts 01/02
33pts 02/03
40pts 03/04
73pts 05/06 Gets big contract!(this year or next, someone correct me)
51pts 06/07
50pts 07/08
53pts 08/09
28pts so far this year....
Kesler:
5pts 03/04
23pts 05/06
16pts 06/07
37pts 07/08
59pts 08/09
66pts so far and big contract...
I really think the comparison has legitimate similarities: at the time of the contract hard-working two way players, still overpaying for the offense, face it, forwards are payed mostly for their offense in the NHL. If he manages to get 82pts per season(ppg player) then you'd still be paying him $60000 per pt. (If the sedin's manage to keep scoring around 100(which daniel would have got too had he not got injured), they also get around $60000 per pt. Is Kesler Sedin caliber?
But you're comparing Kesler now to Sedin's Art Ross caliber season.
The better question in your scenario is, would you pay 5M for an 82 point player? I would say yes in that case.
6M for 100 points is a different question. Take a look at the past few years' 100 point players and you'll see that 6M is actually low. Not a good comparison there if you compare to players that are being underpaid. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2010 : 23:58:31
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6393....very good points made. I think it's very important that teams keep their top players happy and avoiding arbitration is huge.
I totally understand that it's a risk in that Kesler could end up like Horcoff but you can't really tell. Kesler has made steady progression to where he is today. A lot of people when looking at his point totals prob don't realize / remember that Kesler was brought along as a 3rd line checker and it wasn't until he developed and / or got the opportunity to showcase a scoring touch that he moved up the depth chart.
I'll be the first to admit, if Kesler doesn't keep up this sort of production we've seen this year IN THE LEAST (if not, improve further), he'll be overpaid and it could strap the Canucks. However, i maintain that if he was in a position to receive an offer sheet, it'd have been 5mil minimum and likely more. The Canucks have avoided what could have been a messy situation by locking him up and keeping him a happy camper. |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 03/22/2010 : 06:55:10
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| Horcoff is -30 and a player that soley relies on ales hemsky he can hardly win a draw and the only time he get points is when hemmer sends him a pass for the one time on the powerplay. Burrow is better than him in every single way, Horcoff is the duster of the oilers well besides moreau |
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Guest2247
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Posted - 03/22/2010 : 08:05:42
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what an arguement over 500,000 dollars...foolish. Beans who sez some1 has to be a PPG player to receive 5 miilion ?? You ?? matt sundin was a PPG player in TO for years, how much did he receive each year ?... 7 - 8 million per season maybe.
BEANS...question for you...pick your choice of these two players listed below to pay 5m to...you are the GM...
player 1...65 point scorer, 100 % grit, kills penalaties, tough as nails, has size and is very fast.....
player 2...80 point scorer, PPG player as you say, very little grit, not really tough, average size, average speed...
PICK ONE...remember you put a lot of emphasis on PPG player, dont back away from your words now....choose |
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Guest6816
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Posted - 03/22/2010 : 08:24:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Actually Beans, looking at that list I'd certainly take Kesler over Erat, Pominville, Gionta and perhaps Connolly since he's an injury case. After the season and the Olympics Kesler has had he would certainly get at least $5 a year as a UFA. To be honest he was one of the top three most effective Team USA forwards, in my opinion. He plays well two-ways, gets under people's skin (including Beans', apparently) and has that 'sandpaper' quality GM's long for.
If Van made a mistake its not offering him one of those ridiculous 10 year deals where they give him the same money but the cap hit is reduced. It is a bit of a loophole in the system and GM's should take advantage of it to sign young stars while they still can.
That is why you and I are not GM's. Firstly, one would expect a player on a team of the best of the best of the best to perform.
Secondly, no player gets $5 million based on a 2 week tourney. Thirdly, Pominville and Connelly are both far superior player to Kesler. Both have proven to be PPG players regardless of who they play with. Erat may be on his way down but Gionta is also a 40 goal scorer.
As I said, $5 million is elite level money, and Kesler just isn't elite level in my books.
And sandpaper quality?? Morrow and Doan have sandpaper quality. Kelser has D-Bag quality. Huge difference.
In your books? What do your books have to do with the Canucks? I'm afraid your books don't amount to a hill of beans (pun intended).
It's his opinion people....and has no bearing whatsoever on the facts....the Canucks think he's worth it despite what Beans thinks. Is Beans a GM? Thought not....you know what they say about opinions.... |
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Guest6816
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Posted - 03/22/2010 : 08:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Seriously, what an amazing waste of time!! Unfortunately, there is nothing better to discuss than this, so I will continue.
Where did I ever say that Kesler is not a top 6 forward on every team in the NHL??
We have a serious difference of opinion. You honestly think that there are 11-12 teams in the NHL where Kesler would step directly in as their #1 centre??? And I am the one thinking with a Bias??
Even if your opinion was valid, 11-12 teams as a #1 means on 18-19 teams he is a #2 centre. Name me one LEGITIMATE #2 centre in the NHL that is making $5 million??
YES |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 09:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2247
what an arguement over 500,000 dollars...foolish. Beans who sez some1 has to be a PPG player to receive 5 miilion ?? You ?? matt sundin was a PPG player in TO for years, how much did he receive each year ?... 7 - 8 million per season maybe.
BEANS...question for you...pick your choice of these two players listed below to pay 5m to...you are the GM...
player 1...65 point scorer, 100 % grit, kills penalaties, tough as nails, has size and is very fast.....
player 2...80 point scorer, PPG player as you say, very little grit, not really tough, average size, average speed...
PICK ONE...remember you put a lot of emphasis on PPG player, dont back away from your words now....choose
Totally loaded questions, but I will answer it anyway.
I am going to qualify this a little more by assuming that these two players have consistently produced over say the past 3 seasons.
I take the PPG player every single time. Reason why?? There are literally 20-25 players in the NHL any season that play at a PPG level for the entire season. They are corner stones of any franchise and are worth their weight in gold.
Comparatively, the 60 point player, to which there are 60-70 players every season, are not as hot a commodity and are not as rare. They are more easily traded for, drafted, and not as valuable as a PPG players. That difference between 60 and 80 points is normally the difference between success and failure.
Now, if I could get my hands on both players, I would be a complete moron if I did not. However, the PPG guy would be getting his $5-7 million while the 60 Pt guy would be getting his $4ish which is market value.
So ya, I take a Gaborik type player. A guy that does not dig in the corners as much or hit as much and might get injured from time to time over the grinder with an offensive up side.
Finally, to the Offer Sheet Posse. Tell me a single offer sheet that was not over valued?? They all have to be over valued to put the home team against the rail to sign or take the picks. So if Kesler is worth a $5 million offer sheet is that not an overpayment as well??
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 10:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
6393....very good points made. I think it's very important that teams keep their top players happy and avoiding arbitration is huge.
I totally understand that it's a risk in that Kesler could end up like Horcoff but you can't really tell. Kesler has made steady progression to where he is today. A lot of people when looking at his point totals prob don't realize / remember that Kesler was brought along as a 3rd line checker and it wasn't until he developed and / or got the opportunity to showcase a scoring touch that he moved up the depth chart.
I'll be the first to admit, if Kesler doesn't keep up this sort of production we've seen this year IN THE LEAST (if not, improve further), he'll be overpaid and it could strap the Canucks. However, i maintain that if he was in a position to receive an offer sheet, it'd have been 5mil minimum and likely more. The Canucks have avoided what could have been a messy situation by locking him up and keeping him a happy camper.
Wow, some common ground!! That's nice to see.
I agree with 95% of this. One thing I disagree with is that the an offer sheet would have been bigger than $5 million or would even come at all. First of all, the likes of Jokinin, Whitney, Frolov, Plekanec, Marleau, Holmstrom, Ponikarovksy, and Armstrong are just some of the UFA's that are on the list this year. Couple that with the likes of Ryan, Wolski, Wheeler, Pavelski, and Setogouchi as RFA's there is a ton on the market.
Secondly, a $5 million offer means a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick. If the offer goes over $5.2 million, that means 2-1st', a 2nd and a 3rd. All due respect to Ryan Kesler, even his biggest fans would say that is too much to give up for Kesler.
Now, to something that is dear to my heart. Keeping your players happy by overpaying them to avoid arbitration is a serious mistake. It's foolish management and it makes no sense in any situation. Bottom line is that most players take a discount to stay in the place they want to play, they don't demand an over payment. They get paid to play. They don't like the deal, to bad. Arbitration is there for exactly that purpose. If a team and a player(agent) can't agree, they let a mediator agree for them.
I say Bollocks, you get offered a fair contract and you play or you don't play and don't get paid or go to the KHL or whatever.
Look at the Nashville Predators, they have made a living off paying players fair market value. They don't have a single contract with a cap hit more then $4.5 million and their overall cap hit is $44 million.
You don't have to sell the farm to pay a player what they are worth. |
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Kesler Signs for 6 yrs 
