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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2007 : 09:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
I wolud like to read about this study, do you have a link to it ?
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
Are you looking for an adjusted numbers formula? |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 10:42:50
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Actually I had heard of this before just could not remember where, I found the formula and all the stats in one of my books "Total Hockey"...
It has a listing of every player in the NHL and adjusted poins, assists, and goals. It also has an adjusment for goalie averages...
For example goals Howe's best goal year was 49, adjusted would be 67.
Gretzky 92, adjusted 73.
Joe Malone 44, adjusted 61.
If anyone would like to know a players stats and adjustments I could post some of them...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 12:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5029
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5029
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Chooch wasn't making that stat up about Gretzky having the worst Even Strength Goals Against by the way. Here's the list of worst forwards.
Name GP ESGA Per Game
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838 1.24
Mario Lemieux 879 1072 1.22
Blaine Stoughton 526 564 1.07
Peter Stastny 977 1041 1.07
Doug Shedden 416 434 1.04
Mike Rogers 484 504 1.04
Bernie Federko 1000 1019 1.02
Dale McCourt 532 540 1.02
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368 1.01
Dale Hawerchuk 1188 1202 1.01
Sorry but these stats are meaningless without being qualified.
To keep it short here what people need to see is the 'effectiveness by era formula' that a university game up with 10 years ago. Take total goals scored by era (season by season) avg. That is, in a given season, what was the avg total amount of goals per game scored in the entire season when two NHL teams play. Gretzky's number's fall back to the rest of the greatest players ever to play when this formula is used. This is because the total goals per game avg. in Wayne's record breaking seasons were also the highest scoring era in NHL history. That is that when 2 teams played in Wayne's era, the total number of goals scored is way higher than say in Gordie Howes era. I am not bashing Wayne here or diminishing his accomplishments. When you see the players 'effectiveness' in his era statistically adjusted it is amazing to see that all of history's greatest players are ridiculously close by the numbers. In case your missing the point here take Gordie howe for example. In his era goal scoring was low but if the score was say 2-1 and How had 2 points, that would be like Gretzky getting 4 points in a 4-2 game. Hopefully that makes sense. What the formula does is measure a players effectiveness based on his points in relation to the total amount of scoring in his era. Like I said this puts all the greats ridiculously close and is quite amazing to see and makes all the old timers really happy LOL!. It is totally fair statistically. It also negates the above stat about even goals against because Wayne played in the highest scoring era. Think about it, the worst defensive forward in Gordie Howe's era could never get close to over a even strength goal against avg. like Wayne's because when two teams played they didn't even avg 3 goals total. In Wayne's era the avg total score in a game was like 7 goals. The even strength goals against career stats are completely worthless unless adjusted for scoring by era. Think about it.
Then of course there's avg Ice time. If Wayne played 28 minutes a game wouldn't it make sense that he'd be scored against more? Do all players play 28 minutes a game? We know the answer to that!
Like I said totally worthless statistic.
Well the anonymous wizard has spoken. Sign up and get an identity. Clearly you have some things to say. Ok, I thought about it.
I don't believe that statistic is worthless. It depends on how you look at it.
My bet is you mostly don't like it because it puts Mario right behind Wayne.
Can you use the study or formula you mentioned to adjust these stats then? I think you'll find it won't come out much different. All the rest of the players who played in the high flying 80's were included in this list. So comparing Gretzky to his peers (of his era) he came out at the top of the list.
And a lot of players logged similar amounts of ice time.
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 19:25:31
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Someone needs to watch this video...
Chooch Quote...
"3. If you watch his "big" games like his 5 goal game (50 in 39 games) or his 1993 G7 semis game - you will be appalled. His 5 goal game he was basically standing at centre the entire game - and was a +1 on the night! "
Not according to the video...
This one is for you Beans15...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QUC073-Z0&mode=related&search=
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 20:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
Someone needs to watch this video...
Chooch Quote...
"3. If you watch his "big" games like his 5 goal game (50 in 39 games) or his 1993 G7 semis game - you will be appalled. His 5 goal game he was basically standing at centre the entire game - and was a +1 on the night! "
Not according to the video...
This one is for you Beans15...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QUC073-Z0&mode=related&search=
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
I'm not so sure this dispels anything Chooch said. The clip doesn't show enough of the plays. But at least two looked like they started at or near the Flyers zone. My memory of that game isn't clear enough to say though. That reminds me, Leigh had asked me awhile back to start a thread that I may do now. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 20:40:07
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I keep hearing how Gretzky was at center floating when he scored the 50 th, but he picked up the puck in his own end way inside the blue line...YouTube is great it can dispell many myths...Some people may be too young to remember that when Wayne played there was a Red Line...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 21:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
I keep hearing how Gretzky was at center floating when he scored the 50 th, but he picked up the puck in his own end way inside the blue line...YouTube is great it can dispell many myths...Some people may be too young to remember that when Wayne played there was a Red Line...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
He actually said " he was basically standing at centre the entire game."
He didn't say the 5th goal. And it takes about three strides to get halfway from the red line to a blue line. So if you're floating out at centre.....
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 21:15:15
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True, the only way to back it up is to show us some videos of this, I am sure he did get some breakaways from center, but his entire career as a floater, someone is jealous, of what I do not know...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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Guest2091
( )
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Posted - 02/20/2007 : 05:14:25
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| regarding bodyguards... doesn't anybody else recall the sucker shot Gary Suter pulled off on Wayne?? As for "floating at center ice", um... his office was behind the net and if you ever watch highlights you'll notice that he didn't actually score most of his goals on breakaways... he's not that fast of a skater! (Also why Marc Crawford didn't choose him for the shoot out in the olympics). They put in the "gretzky rule" disallowing any 4-4 play, making teams play 5-5. Finally, he has more assists than anybody else has points... think about that... how is he floating at center if he's busy setting others up... BOO GRETZKY HATERS!! Where is your board on hating Tiger Woods and Michael Jordon?? |
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guinman
Top Prospect
Canada
52 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 20:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5029
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5029
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Chooch wasn't making that stat up about Gretzky having the worst Even Strength Goals Against by the way. Here's the list of worst forwards.
Name GP ESGA Per Game
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838 1.24
Mario Lemieux 879 1072 1.22
Blaine Stoughton 526 564 1.07
Peter Stastny 977 1041 1.07
Doug Shedden 416 434 1.04
Mike Rogers 484 504 1.04
Bernie Federko 1000 1019 1.02
Dale McCourt 532 540 1.02
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368 1.01
Dale Hawerchuk 1188 1202 1.01
Sorry but these stats are meaningless without being qualified.
To keep it short here what people need to see is the 'effectiveness by era formula' that a university game up with 10 years ago. Take total goals scored by era (season by season) avg. That is, in a given season, what was the avg total amount of goals per game scored in the entire season when two NHL teams play. Gretzky's number's fall back to the rest of the greatest players ever to play when this formula is used. This is because the total goals per game avg. in Wayne's record breaking seasons were also the highest scoring era in NHL history. That is that when 2 teams played in Wayne's era, the total number of goals scored is way higher than say in Gordie Howes era. I am not bashing Wayne here or diminishing his accomplishments. When you see the players 'effectiveness' in his era statistically adjusted it is amazing to see that all of history's greatest players are ridiculously close by the numbers. In case your missing the point here take Gordie howe for example. In his era goal scoring was low but if the score was say 2-1 and How had 2 points, that would be like Gretzky getting 4 points in a 4-2 game. Hopefully that makes sense. What the formula does is measure a players effectiveness based on his points in relation to the total amount of scoring in his era. Like I said this puts all the greats ridiculously close and is quite amazing to see and makes all the old timers really happy LOL!. It is totally fair statistically. It also negates the above stat about even goals against because Wayne played in the highest scoring era. Think about it, the worst defensive forward in Gordie Howe's era could never get close to over a even strength goal against avg. like Wayne's because when two teams played they didn't even avg 3 goals total. In Wayne's era the avg total score in a game was like 7 goals. The even strength goals against career stats are completely worthless unless adjusted for scoring by era. Think about it.
Then of course there's avg Ice time. If Wayne played 28 minutes a game wouldn't it make sense that he'd be scored against more? Do all players play 28 minutes a game? We know the answer to that!
Like I said totally worthless statistic.
Well the anonymous wizard has spoken. Sign up and get an identity. Clearly you have some things to say. Ok, I thought about it.
I don't believe that statistic is worthless. It depends on how you look at it.
My bet is you mostly don't like it because it puts Mario right behind Wayne.
Can you use the study or formula you mentioned to adjust these stats then? I think you'll find it won't come out much different. All the rest of the players who played in the high flying 80's were included in this list. So comparing Gretzky to his peers (of his era) he came out at the top of the list.
And a lot of players logged similar amounts of ice time.
Actually, if you look at ALL the players on the 'even strength goals against avg' list you'll notice that they're pretty much exclusively from the highest goal scoring era in NHL history. That should tell you something right there. Remember, making comments about defensive shortcomings of these players in this context is reminiscent of saying 'Fuhr wasn't a very good goalie' because of his high Goals against avg. All of these guys may of had shortcomings defensively at times, but certainly these stats reflect their era more than truthfully showing who the worst even strength defensive players may have really been. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 20:54:05
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Chooch wasn't making that stat up about Gretzky having the worst Even Strength Goals Against by the way. Here's the list of worst forwards.
Name GP ESGA Per Game
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838 1.24
Mario Lemieux 879 1072 1.22
Blaine Stoughton 526 564 1.07
Peter Stastny 977 1041 1.07
Doug Shedden 416 434 1.04
Mike Rogers 484 504 1.04
Bernie Federko 1000 1019 1.02
Dale McCourt 532 540 1.02
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368 1.01
Dale Hawerchuk 1188 1202 1.01
[/quote]
[
[/quote]Actually, if you look at ALL the players on the 'even strength goals against avg' list you'll notice that they're pretty much exclusively from the highest goal scoring era in NHL history. That should tell you something right there. Remember, making comments about defensive shortcomings of these players in this context is reminiscent of saying 'Fuhr wasn't a very good goalie' because of his high Goals against avg. All of these guys may of had shortcomings defensively at times, but certainly these stats reflect their era more than truthfully showing who the worst even strength defensive players may have really been.
[/quote]
Absolutely Quin. It's not helpful all time but it does show where he ended up among the peers of his era. |
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guinman
Top Prospect
Canada
52 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 21:00:54
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http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/gretzky/statsarena.html
This makes it clear as chooch has been syaing for a while , that Gretzky dined out on no dfence teasm fom the West and had little goal scoring luck in the East; His total goals in Montreal, Boston , Philly and Nj are weak.
Thats a very strong argument against him. Mario , Orr, Lafleur, Espo played in the tough checking East and still dominated.
[/quote]
Aside from Gretzky breaking into the NHL with a bevy of hall of fame teamates( who undoubtedly benefited from 99's presence) there are many reasons for prefering Mario over Gretzky. As of course there is for the reverse.
Lemieux played in the toughest division in hockey quite early in his career. The Patrick division featured many of the top teams in the league like Philly, NYR,NYI, Wash and even the Devils by '88 were a good team. Not only was winning at more of a premium playing these teams more often, this division was much more defensive than the Oiler's Smythe division. Lemieux still had to play Montreal, Boston and Quebec far more often, which we're usually top teams as well. Not only did Lemieux facer on avg tougher opponent's on a game by game basis, he did so with far less of a supportive cast until the 90's.
Gretzky did get to feast in a much weaker Smyth division and Campell conference. Edmonton and Calgary may have been the two best teams in the NHL for years but 99 was on the Oilers and other than Calgary, Winnipeg was the only other decent team in the whole conference. This combined with the quality of 99's teamates gave him a distinct advantage over the hand that Mario was dealt. Mario didn't have great teamates until 1990 and by then his back problems limited him statisically. Gretzky made the most of his situation to be sure and that's just the way the cards fall. Nobody can control what team they break in with or who they play with.
Obviously I prefer Mario to Wayne but arguing who's better is fruitless. Gretzky's stats are awesome and unrefutable but in many people's minds it's definitely still open for debate. Hell you gotta through Bobby Orr in there too. Stats are important but are not everything. Circumstances always effect the numbers. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 21:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2091
regarding bodyguards... doesn't anybody else recall the sucker shot Gary Suter pulled off on Wayne?? As for "floating at center ice", um... his office was behind the net and if you ever watch highlights you'll notice that he didn't actually score most of his goals on breakaways... he's not that fast of a skater! (Also why Marc Crawford didn't choose him for the shoot out in the olympics). They put in the "gretzky rule" disallowing any 4-4 play, making teams play 5-5. Finally, he has more assists than anybody else has points... think about that... how is he floating at center if he's busy setting others up... BOO GRETZKY HATERS!! Where is your board on hating Tiger Woods and Michael Jordon??
Yes I remember the hit clearly. I've gone back and watched it a few more times as well. That was international competition. Suter had no fear of repercussion. And i still feel that it was a marginally bad hit. Not what they made it out to be. It was blown way out of proportion because it was intl. comp. and emotions are high, and because Gretz went down like a sack of hammers.
Gretzky showed great affection for the redline actually. Judging by the amount of time he spent close to it. He'd wait for the breakout pass, skate down a wing and do his classic curl back move, then pass to a streaking teammate. Usually Kurri or Coffey. If that didn't work then it was back to his office.
Good thought too. I should start an I Hate TW and MJ thread. LOL |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 22:44:53
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Who was the Leaf that flattened Gretzky at the blue line...he lay on the ice a while...Beans15 should know this one...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...I think it was the 1980-81 season... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 02/21/2007 22:48:26 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 14:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Now referee Bill McCreary
Here's the video. To me it was a totally clean hit. Although, if this was to happen to Crosby team, people would say it was a hit to the head and all that other crap. Hey, this is what you get when you skate with your head down!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72oxwUo1T9E
Check this one out too, for a laugh.
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZQXFMHFU
Not the same person
The player Bill McCreary that hit Wayne Gretzky was American born, Hudson, Ohio, and finished playing in the IHL in 1988.
The Referee Bill McCreary is Canadian and was born in Guelph, Ontario, and Refereed his first game in 1984.
I do believe that they are cousins...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 14:29:19
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| You are right PuckNuts. They are cousins. I was always told he was one and the same. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2007 : 21:18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Now referee Bill McCreary
Here's the video. To me it was a totally clean hit. Although, if this was to happen to Crosby team, people would say it was a hit to the head and all that other crap. Hey, this is what you get when you skate with your head down!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72oxwUo1T9E
Chech this one out too, for a laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZQXFMHFU
Great stuff Beans. Glad to see you can be objective about your fav player.
And if my memory serves correctly, what you are saying about if it happened to Crosby, well... they said those types of things about any of the hits on G too.
It's funny how much things don't change actually. |
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Guest4793
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Posted - 02/22/2007 : 22:44:34
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hey, just noticed the post,
holy cow, get a life or find something else to talk about
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 06:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4793
hey, just noticed the post,
holy cow, get a life or find something else to talk about
Uhhhh.... Do you know where you are? |
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Guest4274
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Posted - 02/23/2007 : 07:39:33
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| gretzky the best in the early 80s when mario played a full season gretzky never one a scoring title after marios rookie season. unless mario was injured. how many pts would mario have gotten if healty and played in a confrence that was weaker than weak. no clutching and grabbing and no goaltending like today. i would say a motivated jagr is better than gretz. considering what jagr did in the 90s |
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Guest7888
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Posted - 02/23/2007 : 16:21:18
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Its chooch- I agree excellet post ; here's my top 5 list in 35 years of watching hockey:
1. MArio
2.Hasek
3. Orr
4. Jagr
5.Lafleur
Lafleur 19 77 season 132 points was better than any of Gretzkys nonsensical 200 point seasons. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
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Guest7888
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Posted - 02/24/2007 : 06:05:41
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| iTS CHOOCH - I dont have o see youtube; that game eventhough the flyers were paying had absolutely no bodychekcs no real East play. The game was like an allstar game for floaters. Still 99's selfhish one way play kept teh game close. But of course another record was broken. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 17:16:57
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You see what you want to see, you here what you want to here, but everone else knows reality...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 18:02:10
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| "here" what you want to "here"? I don't HEAR what you are "hereing" |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 05:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4274
gretzky the best in the early 80s when mario played a full season gretzky never one a scoring title after marios rookie season. unless mario was injured. how many pts would mario have gotten if healty and played in a confrence that was weaker than weak. no clutching and grabbing and no goaltending like today. i would say a motivated jagr is better than gretz. considering what jagr did in the 90s
I completely agree with you Guest4274. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 06:17:39
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When Mario won his first scoring title Gretzky played 11 games less than Mario...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 02/25/2007 13:13:53 |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 18:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
When Mario won his first scoring title Gretzky played 11 games less than Mario...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
99 couldnt carry messiers jock much less Mario's.
99 was on the ice for 1900 ESGA. Think about that. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 19:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4274
gretzky the best in the early 80s when mario played a full season gretzky never one a scoring title after marios rookie season. unless mario was injured. how many pts would mario have gotten if healty and played in a confrence that was weaker than weak. no clutching and grabbing and no goaltending like today. i would say a motivated jagr is better than gretz. considering what jagr did in the 90s
This is what I was refering too...
ESGA that must be just terrible, what about his other stats...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:13:57
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No Point to argue with this guy PuckNuts. He is great at looking at stats to prove his point, but doesn't care about the stats that disprove his point.
Wasting your time with this "hockey genius" |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 17:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
No Point to argue with this guy PuckNuts. He is great at looking at stats to prove his point, but doesn't care about the stats that disprove his point.
Wasting your time with this "hockey genius"
i guess you have no comebacks. stats are your domain anyway. i saw a flotation device in a uniform. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 19:36:56
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Chooch, you only look at stats that serve your purpose. Anything that doesn't you disregard. You are entitled to you opinion and I respect your opinion. What I don't repect is your ignorance to other opinions.
Read PuckNuts response again. Any comments on his other stats?? Nope, only on his negative ones. That is ignorant.
Enjoy you posts, you won't see another from me on this. I will not waste my time with you any longer. |
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Guest2575
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Posted - 02/27/2007 : 19:50:24
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| Orr played 9 seasons i believe and his+/- was around Getzkys and Orr had a season or two with +120 and over so thats remarkable for a defenceman and i say Gretzky was so good offensivelly thats why everyone loved him and to win games you have to score and thats what he did so games would be won with a high score |
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Guest6936
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Posted - 02/27/2007 : 21:23:51
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| What an absurd topic. I looked because I assumed it must be a joke. I'm generally a strong believer in the idea that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but this almost makes me think differently. Wayne Gretzky mediocre? What's the next thread this guy will start "Strongest Arguements That The Earth Is Flat"? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 21:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6936
What an absurd topic. I looked because I assumed it must be a joke. I'm generally a strong believer in the idea that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but this almost makes me think differently. Wayne Gretzky mediocre? What's the next thread this guy will start "Strongest Arguements That The Earth Is Flat"?
COMPLETELY AND WHOLE-HEARTILY AGREE.
A 'Best Player Ever' debate is reasonable, but a "Gretzy was mediocre" thread should be shut down and frozen by the Admin as it is such a joke.
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Edited by - tctitans on 02/27/2007 21:50:24 |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 17:14:56
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6936
What an absurd topic. I looked because I assumed it must be a joke. I'm generally a strong believer in the idea that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but this almost makes me think differently. Wayne Gretzky mediocre? What's the next thread this guy will start "Strongest Arguements That The Earth Is Flat"?
COMPLETELY AND WHOLE-HEARTILY AGREE.
A 'Best Player Ever' debate is reasonable, but a "Gretzy was mediocre" thread should be shut down and frozen by the Admin as it is such a joke.
what are you the internet censor? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 17:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by chooch
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6936
What an absurd topic. I looked because I assumed it must be a joke. I'm generally a strong believer in the idea that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but this almost makes me think differently. Wayne Gretzky mediocre? What's the next thread this guy will start "Strongest Arguements That The Earth Is Flat"?
COMPLETELY AND WHOLE-HEARTILY AGREE.
A 'Best Player Ever' debate is reasonable, but a "Gretzy was mediocre" thread should be shut down and frozen by the Admin as it is such a joke.
what are you the internet censor?
i'm outta this thread... I refuse to be a part of this insanity any longer.
:)
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2007 : 16:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Chooch, you only look at stats that serve your purpose. Anything that doesn't you disregard. You are entitled to you opinion and I respect your opinion. What I don't repect is your ignorance to other opinions.
Read PuckNuts response again. Any comments on his other stats?? Nope, only on his negative ones. That is ignorant.
Enjoy you posts, you won't see another from me on this. I will not waste my time with you any longer.
If someone saved a thousand lives and you find out that guy also shot 900 people is he a saviour still?
1900 ESGA; the player to win an Art Ross as a minus player etc etc certianly trump those silly records like most goals in a an all star game.
9 Harts worth anything? Then why did your team winthe Cup the year after you left?
Question: one of the most dominating seasons I ever witnessed in any sport was 1976/77 Lafleur. What if Scotty had said to him:the team is on track to give up 175 goals against and you're on track to score 130 points. But I'm ok with you being on the ice for 150 Even strength goals againts (like Gretzkyin his big years).
Ya think Lafleur would have hit for 100 goals instead of 60? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 19:56:28
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I hate to post again, but I have to post again.
Chooch, you dont know beans. (notice it's not Beans) ;)
You have all these worries about The Greatest One's ESGA...
Let me ask you... What's your comment on his
+40, +81, +60, +76, +98, +71, ... seaons and his +514 career +/-?
Wayne also had the leagues BEST +/- 4 times - doesnt sound like
a problem I'd have if i were his coach.
Year Team GP Goals Assists Points +/- PIM
79-80 Oilers 79 51 86 137 0 21
80-81 Oilers 80 55 109 164 41 28
81-82 Oilers 80 92 120 212 81 26
82-83 Oilers 80 71 125 196 60 59
83-84 Oilers 74 87 118 205 76 39
84-85 Oilers 80 73 135 208 98 52
85-86 Oilers 80 52 163 215 71 46
86-87 Oilers 79 62 121 183 70 28
87-88 Oilers 64 40 109 149 39 24
88-89 Kings 78 54 114 168 15 26
89-90 Kings 73 40 102 142 8 42
90-91 Kings 78 41 122 163 30 16
91-92 Kings 74 31 90 121 -12 34
92-93 Kings 45 16 49 65 6 6
93-94 Kings 81 38 92 130 -25 20
94-95 Kings 48 11 37 48 -20 6
95-96 Kings 62 15 66 81 -7 32
95-96 Blues 18 8 13 21 -6 2
96-97 Rangers 82 25 72 97 12 28
97-98 Rangers 82 23 67 90 -11 28
98-99 Rangers 69 9 52 61 -27 14
NHL TOTALS 1486 894 1962 2856 514 577
JUST JAW DROPPING STATS.
I dont want to take anything away from his Marvellousness, but Mario's career +/- is +115, never had more than a +55 in a season, and his best seasons were +55, +41, +27, +23, and had 5 minus seasons spread thoughout his career (Gretz only got to the minuses as his career dwindled).
Messier? well he was a slightly better +210 in his career.. but he had minus seasons spread throughout his career and never had more than a +40 season.
EVEN Gretzy's +/- is simply Great!!
Orr did you say? Yes, Orr was amazing too! His +124 record season will probably live forever (Although Robinson almost broke it ;))! But even Orr, probably the #1 player in the history of the NHL when you think of +/-, wasnt that that much different...
Orr's 124, 86, 84, 80, 65, 54
Gret's 98, 81, 76, 71, 70, 60
QED |
Edited by - tctitans on 03/05/2007 20:06:04 |
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Topic |
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Strongest arguments that Gretzky was mediocre 
