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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2012 :  19:05:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Typical Leaf fan crap. Ask yourself this question:

On thief absolute best days, what team in the NHL would either Reimer or Gustovsson displace the current starter????

I bet you name less than 5 teams. Bottom line, the Leafs have possibly the worst goaltending in the NHL. but even if they had a better goaltending, the live and die by one offensive line. Their defense is horrible.

Wilson has a hand in that, but he can only do what he can with what he has.



Typical uninformed tripe.

On their best days? On their best days, Reimer and Gustavsson get a shutout and look like a very good starting goalie . . . so that is ridiculous to postulate. This year, I'd say they are about a third of the way up in terms of goalie ratings - Better than Philly and the Islanders, and in the west, better than Chicago, Columbus, Edmonton, probably Colorado, and Anaheim, about even with a few others. Note the playoff teams here.

On the other hand, on paper, the Leafs defence should be quite good to excellent.

To your other point about it being only a one line team . . . without looking it up, I can guarantee the Leafs second line outscores half the league's second lines if you add it up. Clearly, you don't know the Leafs second line is up to almost the same standard as last year, minus the ever-slumping Kulemin. Besides him, MacArthur and Grabo are on a similar pace goal wise, and Grabo continues to be our third best forward night in and night out, he's a dangerous, shifty player.

Wilson has his hat in his hand because he's looking for handouts, that's about it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2012 :  19:06:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think tonight's game proves my point, a game the leafs NEEDED to win, playing a team they are chasing for a playoff spot. This is where the good coach really gets his players fired up. The leafs came out with another lackluster effort, in a game I expected to have a playoff atmosphere. 2 goals, and not pretty ones, sloppy play in their own end, leading to yet another loss. They do have talent, Kessel, Grabovski, Lupul, Lombardi, Gardiner, Liles, Phaneuf, they just need some direction, maybe a shake up in playing style. A coaching change at this point probably won't save them, there is always time for a team to adjust to a new coach, and even if they do sneak into the playoffs, there aren't many teams in the upper 8 of the eastern conference that the leafs would beat in a best of seven. And with Wilson's 3 year extension it's not likely he'll be fired. Maybe Burke can bring someone else to play to Wilson's coaching style instead... Either way I'm not to excited about this team right now.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2012 :  19:09:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
and also I can't agree with you more slozo, word for word
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Guest2247
( )

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  06:20:32  Reply with Quote
Beans i think you are missing the point leaf fans are making about Ron Wilson. Do you ever watch his condesending remarks during his post game interviews ??

This man is a complete ignorant moron who has no class and SURELY god has ABSOLUTELY no respect from his players.

Have you ever had people working under you ?? I am a construction foreman who lead other men. I treat my men fairly and with respect, plus i work hard myself...they see this and follow.

I don`t make sarcastic remarks about them and i really listen to what they have to say...guess what, they respond and a lot of work gets done.

Two foremans with our company are hard nosed idiots ( eg. see Ron Wilson ) who blab nonsense about his men to other people and they ( the workers ) know it.....and guess what....every time these Two foremans turn their back, their men are F-ing the dog and screwing them over..

My point is that in life....No respect....No results

Ron Wilson is NOT a leader...he is an arogant a$$ - hole...whose tongue twisting one liners quickly make him many enemies. Its very hard for people to excel in this atmosphere.


After saying all this..As a leaf fan and seriously evaluating them.....

1. Their goaltending GAA`s are ranked 39 th ( gus ) and 42 nd ( rem ) overall in the league...thats not even in the top 30...geeeezzz....they are not even in the top BACKUPS !!!!!

2. Their defense mostly play STUPID, caught out of position all the time because, i think...they have NO system in place....just a bunch of pond hockey scrambly play ( see coaching )

3. The leafs are clearly 4 bonafied players away from being a much, much...better team.....plus a new coach too

a ) A true first line center
b ) A big 2nd line winger with scoring touch
c ) A true shut down defenseman...NOT luke schenn
and
d ) A real number 1 goal - tender

Gus and Rem may be great one day...but surely neither is NHL ready...

Until the leafs address these problems...they will be in a constant battle for a playoff spot
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  06:21:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 2247 was me...wasn`t logged on
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  06:25:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Shepsky,
For last night being a lacklustre effort for the first two periods - I can't totally blame the coach for that, no. These guys are pros, and should know it was the biggest game of the season so far . . . just like the last two games before that, when it was also a "must win" situation to stay in the playoff race.

That being said, my case for Wilson throwing his goalies under the bus cannot be better reinforced than his post game comments. I quote:

“The two goals early in the game were stoppable chances,” said Wilson. “They (the Capitals) got saves at one end, we didn’t. We dug a hole because of that. And we’re kind of always waiting now for something bad to happen. We’ve got to find a way to get over that."

He was referring to the first two goals of the game, of course; the first scored by Johanssen that was a wraparound goal, with brutal defensive coverage, and the second goal scored by Semin from 6 feet out all alone after an absolute brutal giveaway by Schenn.

“You can pull a goalie. I thought tonight I’ll call a time out, tell everybody to relax, that we can get out of this hole. Then you start playing tentative hockey. That’s what happens. With all the other stuff that bubbles around at the outside like trade deadlines, those little things that affect players.

“You worry you’ll be the one moved. It affects a young team.”

So Wilson doesn't mention the horrible defensive coverage; he fails to mention that the second goal was a brutal giveaway by Schenn; he only blames the goalie - the young goalie who he absolutely needs to get some confidence back and start playing just consistent, solid goaltending once again.

I mean . . . the wraparound goal was a bit soft, I'll give you that - but to state things as he did was not only disingenuous, it was an absolute rookie coach stupid thing to say.

I can't think of a more detrimental approach to keeping your players accountable . . . especially when young James Reimer is already a goalie who DOES have his head on right, who DOES take responsibility for his bad goals (as he did last night with his own comments).

If you are a coach, in Wilson's position with the Leafs . . . why do what he did? I find Wilson a small, petty man at heart, and in these emotional moments after the game, he just can't rise above the fray for even a second it seems . . . and his fear for his job shows through in his idiotic, thoughtless comments.

Brutal throwing under the bus of Reimer.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  07:27:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been saying it for a few seasons, Ron Wilson is not a good fit for this Toronto young team. The product that is on the ice is pretty, talented and fast. The defense of the team has no structure and this reflect directly on the goalies performance.

I agree that the goalies are not starter material and that the Leafs needs a starter for a couple more seasons. But right now that's what the team is playing with and they need to surround those guys with better defense, something Ron Wilson has failed miserably since his tenure in Toronto.

As for the goalie coach, I don't know if you can teach butterfly, percentage goaltending to every goalies. Some relys on reflects (Gustavsson) and when you take that away from them he gets lost out there. I really respect his resume (Allaire), but I think you need to work with what you have and work on the goalie strength while fixing his weaknesses. But I can't really say what is going on there so I wont point that as a problem.

Anyway that being said, even when Toronto was doing good at christmas time, I was really disapointed when Burke gave an extention to Ron Wilson.

I think Burke did a really good job since he's in Toronto, got some good young prospects, got some good depth and speed but him sticking out with Ron Wilson is his biggest mistake.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  08:48:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First off, I just wanted to reply to Slozo's post about 'typical uniformed tripe" by saying two things:
-To think that either goalie in TO is better than Khabibulin or Hiller is simply daft. You named 5 other teams, as I said, bet you can't name more than 5.
-The Leafs success this year has been based on Lupul and Kessel having career years. Period. I think it is virtually impossible to argue against that and to say otherwise is again, simply daft.

Now that I kept that pot stirred.

Why does it take the Leafs losing to bring all these comments about him being arrogant, small, miss managing the goalies, etc. He has been doing those things from the start of the season. Heck, he's been like that his entire career!!! But when it works nothing is said but when it doesn't work he is a bad coach???Sorry folks, it doesn't work like that. At least not in my books.

Finally, this team was slated from the start of the year to be a borderline playoff team. Most people had them pegged 7th to 9th in the East. That is where they are and where they will finish. Knowing my luck they will make it in at the 8th spot. But I (and it's my opinion) believe that if there was a different coach in TO today or even from the start of the season, it is unlikely the results are significantly different. Maybe a win or two more or less, but not as much as Leaf fans would hope.

The Leafs are who they are. Coaching doesn't compensate for having an average team.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  16:01:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans , i personally didn`t wait for the leafs to have a bad run to down Ron Wilson...neither did some others on here, what you are saying is wrong.

From your posts i realize you do have extensive hockey knowledge but as i said about you before, you do kind of twist things to make them sound good...to your posting advantage.

I`ve been posting here now for quite a while and my comments on Ron Wilson are THE SAME NOW as they were ( i`m guessing approx. ) two years ago...my opinion of him HASN`T CHANGED.
You know this is true.

So, my question to you is .....answer directly now

Why do you say there aren`t negative comments here regularly by leaf fans about Ron Wilson ....until the leafs lose ??...when clearly leaf fans constantly blast this man all the time.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  18:54:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, just because you claim to have said nothing but bad things about Wilson doesn't mean you are actions are the reflection of all Leaf fans.

No Leaf fans were talking crap about Wilson (include you) when the Leafs were leadin the NE for the first 20-30 games of the season. Only when the Leafs are falling do the Wilson comments come. Where were the Leaf fans talking about the fear of depending solely on one line to score?? Where were the Leaf fans dogging Wilson for the poor PK?? Where were the comments about having inexperiences goaltending.

They didn't happen. Feel free to prove otherwise. Show me all these posts where people were saying that Wilson was a problem through the first 30 games of the season.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  20:01:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have not been a fan of Wilson, ever. Not since day one. However, you won't find an earlier negative forum I've started about Ron Wilson, for a couple reasons, I haven't been a member on this site for too long, and most fans don't start negative posts when their team is winning, that's just what people do, they focus on the positive when they are winning, talking about Kessel and Lupul having career years, and when they are losing, they talk about the negative, and the negative gets focused on even more, not that leafs fans didn't think Ron Wilson was a problem before, it's just that now that they are losing, now we talk about it. I am glad to see that most people agree with me, well everyone except Beans, which I guess is just as good as everyone agreeing. There are better coaches available, but we are stuck with Wilson for a while....
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2012 :  20:17:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Shepsky, not sure what I did to deserve that verbal backhand but whatever. I think you are being a bit shortsighted in saying that most people agree with you. There are a number of long term members of the site did not chime in at all.

So, if you consider a number of Leaf fans agreeing that Wilson is a bad coach during a streak of poor play by the Leafs than so be it.

Finally, in my opinion, I don't think anyone has named a coach that would do better than Wilson.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  04:37:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans, don't get too offended. I'm not one of the many Beans haters out there, I'm just saying sometimes I think you enjoy stirring the pot a little, but that's what this site is about right? All I'm saying is that when I started this topic I expected a lot of leafs fans to come in and defend Wilson, but that hasn't really happened a whole lot, that's all. So back to the topic. I really think MLSE should bow their heads and try to get Paul Maurice back.... but that won't happen.
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
385 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  05:19:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
me personally i dont want PM back i would to see what pat quinn could do with this team or carlyle. i was a huge quinn fan when he was the head caoch and he got teams playing above their average all the time. i mean seriously he had poni and antrapov as top line wingers?? poni now plays as a third line winger in NJ and antropov i believe plays as a 2nd or third line centre in winnipeg. sometimes on the first. quinn got the most out of them. because the old gm sucked. now we have burke and a lot of talent coming up i would love to see what quinn could do with these guys.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  05:22:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually I think Pat Quinn could also do a better job than Ron Wilson, both Quinn and Maurice had a different leafs team, and both could do better job with this younger Leafs team.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  05:46:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Duke, just because you claim to have said nothing but bad things about Wilson doesn't mean you are actions are the reflection of all Leaf fans.

No Leaf fans were talking crap about Wilson (include you) when the Leafs were leadin the NE for the first 20-30 games of the season. Only when the Leafs are falling do the Wilson comments come. Where were the Leaf fans talking about the fear of depending solely on one line to score?? Where were the Leaf fans dogging Wilson for the poor PK?? Where were the comments about having inexperiences goaltending.

They didn't happen. Feel free to prove otherwise. Show me all these posts where people were saying that Wilson was a problem through the first 30 games of the season.



So . . . you honestly don't remember for the last two years a bunch of Leafs fans whining and griping about Wilson? Seriously?

We've all complained about him . . . last year as well as this year.

The fact that you point out we should have complained about him during Leaf winning streaks is . . . beyond ludicrous, Beans.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  09:58:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pierre Maguire as head coach of the Leafs. Match made in heaven. Don't even dare to deny it.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  10:27:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Duke, just because you claim to have said nothing but bad things about Wilson doesn't mean you are actions are the reflection of all Leaf fans.

No Leaf fans were talking crap about Wilson (include you) when the Leafs were leadin the NE for the first 20-30 games of the season. Only when the Leafs are falling do the Wilson comments come. Where were the Leaf fans talking about the fear of depending solely on one line to score?? Where were the Leaf fans dogging Wilson for the poor PK?? Where were the comments about having inexperiences goaltending.

They didn't happen. Feel free to prove otherwise. Show me all these posts where people were saying that Wilson was a problem through the first 30 games of the season.



So . . . you honestly don't remember for the last two years a bunch of Leafs fans whining and griping about Wilson? Seriously?

We've all complained about him . . . last year as well as this year.

The fact that you point out we should have complained about him during Leaf winning streaks is . . . beyond ludicrous, Beans.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



No Slozo, what is beyond ludicrous is the bandwagon jumping that goes on. When the Leafs are winning, Wilson is not a bad coach. When the Leafs are losing, he is a bad coach.

He's either good or bad all the time.

And you are right Slozo, every time in the past 2 seasons when the Leafs are losing, the typical boo birds come out about Wilson.
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
385 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  13:00:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
even when the leafs are winning wilson is a BAD coach. when riems gets a shutout he says anyone could have gotten the shutout. he doesnt praise they guy who plays on his head.

the "W" just casts a temporary shadow over his crapy style of coaching.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2012 :  14:14:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, why are you being such an hyprocrite on this subject ??

You know fully well that 90 % of leaf fans here on this site can`t stand Ron Wilson...its been nothing but negative critizism regarding this guy from leaf fans ever since the first time he opened his mouth at leaf post - game conferences.

Most of these negative comments are directed at the mans demeanor...not necessarily his coaching....

You surely have to remember some of these comments in other posts over the past two seasons...why won`t you admit it ??

As for bandwagon jumping...thats nonsense. I`ve been a die hard leaf fan for decades. Believe me i`ve had many, many disappointing seasons to watch as a leaf fan....but guess what...i`m still a leaf fan.

If leaf fans were bandwagon jumpers they would have picked a new team to cheer for years ago but they didn`t.....they stick with their team even after YEARS of losing.

That my friend is a TRUE fan ....the total opposite of what you claim to be bandwagon jumpers.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  06:05:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Duke, just because you claim to have said nothing but bad things about Wilson doesn't mean you are actions are the reflection of all Leaf fans.

No Leaf fans were talking crap about Wilson (include you) when the Leafs were leadin the NE for the first 20-30 games of the season. Only when the Leafs are falling do the Wilson comments come. Where were the Leaf fans talking about the fear of depending solely on one line to score?? Where were the Leaf fans dogging Wilson for the poor PK?? Where were the comments about having inexperiences goaltending.

They didn't happen. Feel free to prove otherwise. Show me all these posts where people were saying that Wilson was a problem through the first 30 games of the season.



So . . . you honestly don't remember for the last two years a bunch of Leafs fans whining and griping about Wilson? Seriously?

We've all complained about him . . . last year as well as this year.

The fact that you point out we should have complained about him during Leaf winning streaks is . . . beyond ludicrous, Beans.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



No Slozo, what is beyond ludicrous is the bandwagon jumping that goes on. When the Leafs are winning, Wilson is not a bad coach. When the Leafs are losing, he is a bad coach.

He's either good or bad all the time.

And you are right Slozo, every time in the past 2 seasons when the Leafs are losing, the typical boo birds come out about Wilson.



Bandwagon jumping?

You lost me here. How is the largest fanbase for a long time losing franchise called "bandwagon jumpers"?

And just like Oiler fans, Flames fans, Canucks Fans and Canadiens fans . . . when the team is losing, they will get criticism, and when the team is winning, they will get far less if any. That is how it works.

Is that why you went on all those Flames threads and called the Flames fans a bunch of bandwagon jumpers for calling for Sutter's head way back when? Did you criticise THEM for blaming everything on the coach?

You know Beans, sometimes when someone gives the opinion of a coach being a bad coach for the team . . . it's actually their informed and legitimate opinion.

You can go back and look up my thoughts on Paul Maurice as a coach here for background on myself at least not blaming every coach just because they are losing.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest9188
( )

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  06:37:16  Reply with Quote
I've never liked Wilson since the first time I heard him do a post game interview. I've seen him do almost every one since he became the Leafs coach and I see nothing in his personality that indicates he's the type of guy a player would respond to in a pressure situation. He may know the game but he lacks the personality that would make him a great coach. That is all.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  07:38:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, you made some fair points. It is not typical for fans to gripe while their team is being successful, so it was likely unfair to make the bandwagon comments. At least a little unfair. Please appreciate that it is hard to make comments on this site that are not at least a little generalized. I appreciate that not every single Leaf fan has jumped on Wilson in the past few weeks and that some of you have been on his back for a lot longer.

I also appreciate that opinions are often informed and legitimate. In the same respect, different opinions can also be informed and legitimate. Let's ensure we are treating all opinions the same and not just the one's that align with our own opinion.

I think when you look at the coaching landscape in the NHL today you have 3 types of coaches. There are teachers, strategists, and combinations. For example, I think guys like Tom Renney, Paul MacLean, and Peter Laviolette are teachers. They are the inspirational guys who get a bunch out of their players and help young guys get really good. There are also strategists like Ron Wilson, Brent Sutter, and Daryl Sutter. These guys are known to be hardline guys who expect discipline and execution from their players and will normally win if their players execute. Then you have guys that seem to be able to do both. Guys like Ken Hitchcock, Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock, and Joel Quinville. These guys are not only great strategist but also great teachers.

As such, I don't think Wilson is a bad coach. Perhaps he is not the correct kind of coach the Leafs need, but that doesn't make him a bad coach. The wrong coach and a bad coach is not the same thing, in my opinion.

Edited by - Beans15 on 02/28/2012 08:22:06
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Guest5744
( )

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  08:07:27  Reply with Quote
just to start things off...
ron wilson is the current leader in wins among active nhl coaches.
ron wilson is 6th all time in coaching wins. (could probably have cracked the top 5 if he hadn't taken a job in Toronto)
you don't get there by accident.

the leafs have far worse problems than wilson:

- two current back-up goalies (gustavsson could be a starter i don't think reimer ever will)
- the bottom 6 forwards aren't the depth guys you want
- some bad contracts (komi, connolly)
- lack of prospects until recently
- 1 really bad trade to avoid a full re-build
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  08:08:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On this very thread there is a couple of Leafs fans saying that Ron Wilson is not the right fit for a very young Leafs team.

You are saying that Ron Wilson is a strategist, ok true that, but since is tenure in Toronto we haven't seen those strategies, or system, being in place especially defensively. So this is very frustrating for Leafs fans.

I don't recall reading any post sayind that Ron Wilson was a good coach when the Leafs were winning. You are on this site more often then I am so maybe you saw some comments, but you can't say it is the majority, especially from the regular Leafs fans on this site.

Montreal fans sent Guy Carbonneau and Jacques Martin packing in the past few seasons. Are they bandwagon jumpers, I don't think so they are just really passionnate fans that demands the best product possible on the ice.

Ron Wilson has been in Toronto for a few years now and he has failed miserably as a head coach. Burke clean the house that wasn't playing his system, and with a whole new team it's still the same story.

I get that Toronto is a young inconsistent team and that it will show with any coach. I will admit to that. But I've been saying for a couple of years now and I will keep saying it until I see a change in their play. Ron Wilson is not the right fit in Toronto and Brian Burke should fire him in the offseason.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  08:12:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5744

just to start things off...
ron wilson is the current leader in wins among active nhl coaches.
ron wilson is 6th all time in coaching wins. (could probably have cracked the top 5 if he hadn't taken a job in Toronto)
you don't get there by accident.

the leafs have far worse problems than wilson:

- two current back-up goalies (gustavsson could be a starter i don't think reimer ever will)
- the bottom 6 forwards aren't the depth guys you want
- some bad contracts (komi, connolly)
- lack of prospects until recently
- 1 really bad trade to avoid a full re-build



Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  08:26:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would not want Connelly, Lombardi, and Armstrong as the 3rd line on the team I cheer for, that's for sure!! They are all borderline 2nd line players and except for Lombardi, they are not defensively focused and hard to play against. They Leafs are not a hard group of forwards to play against. They are fast and more offensively focused than most NHL teams. However, the don't stop the other team hardly at all.

To the point that Ron Wilson failed as a head coach. Just out of curiousity, what would success look like?? Now, when answering that question please take into account the quality of players the Leafs have had.

For the record, Guest 5744 is not me, but I agree with his statement completely. The Leafs are simply not much more than an average NHL team.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  09:02:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.



Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  09:34:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I would not want Connelly, Lombardi, and Armstrong as the 3rd line on the team I cheer for, that's for sure!! They are all borderline 2nd line players and except for Lombardi, they are not defensively focused and hard to play against. They Leafs are not a hard group of forwards to play against. They are fast and more offensively focused than most NHL teams. However, the don't stop the other team hardly at all.

To the point that Ron Wilson failed as a head coach. Just out of curiousity, what would success look like?? Now, when answering that question please take into account the quality of players the Leafs have had.

For the record, Guest 5744 is not me, but I agree with his statement completely. The Leafs are simply not much more than an average NHL team.



They are not a tough team to play against, especially their forwards. They are not a hard nose team. But if they are marginal second line, how can't they be 3rd line material? Armstrong (when healthy and when not a healthy scratch by our dear friend Ron Wilson) is a very effective and hard nose third line player. Connolly is talented but having an off year, probably hard to adjust from playing with Lindy Ruff to Ron Wilson. Lombardi is speedy and you need speed when you want to put your energy line out.

Oh why did he fail??? Poor powerplay except for a few months this season, poor pk, poor defense system resulting in them being bottom of the conference when they should be fighting for a playoff spot and resulting in them being out of the playoff when they should or could be in. In the east right now there is two spots available because most teams are playing aweful and Toronto should be in front of teams like Winnipeg, Florida or Ottawa. Every year they are producing below their expectations and IMO they are not overrated (by the majority) but they are undercoached. Montreal in the past few seasons were playing well because of a great coaching system that everybody was playing for. That's why they were doing good, because with all the injuries they delt with and all the AHL players that were coming in were playing above their expectations. Same with Ottawa, Winnipeg and Florida this season. Same with Nashville and Phoenix the past few seasons. Those are all well coached team. I don't think Mike Smith or Jose Theodore are that better then Reimer and Gustavsson, but a well coached team makes it a whole lot easier for the goalies. St Louis is another exemple, and there is plenty of exemple like that every year that teams are overexceeding their expectations. Toronto are not with Ron Wilson, they are even underachieving, so to me that is failing. year after year

Edited by - Leafs81 on 02/28/2012 09:51:21
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Leafs81
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714 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  09:41:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.



Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.



I never said Connolly was gonna have a 80 points season. Check it out if you want. I don't recall anybody else on this site saying that either, why is everything blown out of proportions??? Yes he's not producing very well this season and a reason for him being on the third line. Yes it's a lot of money to put on a third line but I think it shows that Toronto has depth and they are more talented then most third line in the NHL just underproducing. And when a lot of players are not achieving to there potentials, well it's as fair a reason why Leafs fans blame the coaching staff. We have been seing that for a few seasons now.
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 02/28/2012 :  09:42:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....


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Leafs81
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714 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  10:10:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....






Well true that, the third line should be a checking line. Another reason why Armstrong should never be a healthy scratch. Another reason why a struggling Kulemin should be playing on the third line. Kulemin is (this season) third line material, struggling offensively but really effective defensively and hard nose in his own zone.

As for Connolly he should be seeing some powerplay time with Kessel and Lupul.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  10:30:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.



Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.



I never said Connolly was gonna have a 80 points season. Check it out if you want. I don't recall anybody else on this site saying that either, why is everything blown out of proportions??? Yes he's not producing very well this season and a reason for him being on the third line. And when a lot of players are not achieving to there potentials, well it's as fair a reason why Leafs fans blame the coaching staff. We have been seing that for a few seasons now.



Leafs81, relax - I was not pointing at you specifically. There was so much exuberance from Leaf faithful when Connolly came over as the "answer to our missing first line centre", its shocking that he's fallen that far in the depth chart.

quote:

Yes it's a lot of money to put on a third line but I think it shows that Toronto has depth and they are more talented then most third line in the NHL just underproducing.



I wanted to single this out. No, it does not show me that they have depth - as Beans alluded to, the character of your third line is not that of your second line, and should not be made up of offensive players that don't fit on the second line.

When I think of quality 3rd lines, I think of BOS: Bergeron or Seguin, Chris Kelley, Greg Campbell, or VAN: Lapierre, Hansen, Higgins or Malhotra . Fast, strong, tough players that are defensive in nature and difficult to play against. There might be the occasional offensive flair, but their job is primarily to shut down the other team's top line, and not cost a lot of money doing so (BOS pays 8M or so for their 3rd line, VAN pays 5M or so). Armstrong is that type of player, but Lombardi and Connolly? Not so much.

You can't just take second line leftovers and put them on your 3rd line and hope they fit the mold, because they usually don't.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  11:00:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....




Actually Beans,
You and most others - including myself - called Connolly a marginal 1st line centre.

And that marginal first line/second line centre used to play for the perrenial playoff team the Buffalo Sabres, on the first line when he was healthy most of the time.

I agree with the decision to let Bozak stay on the top line, myself . . . but Connolly is misplaced on the third line, for sure. And Wilson put him on that line - nobody forced him to.

Just like we have a guy in Kulemin who COULD be playing quite well as a grittier third line guy, but even though his production consistantly drags down his linemates, he stays on the second line.

So Beans - we have gone through your points here . . . you stated that Wilson has a poor batch of scorers, only a one line team, and that is provably false. You have said that we don't have the grit for our third and fourth line, and yet guys like Steckel, Brown, Armstrong, and what should be a guy like Kulemin are all there to be used. You state that without a good goalie, you can't be a good coach . . . ignoring the fact that Wilson, through his goalie mismanagement, has killed both goalies' confidence. And, you have stated that Leafs fans are bandwagon jumpers, just minlessly asking for the coaches job at every losing streak - again, provably false.

I just have one more question for you then, my contrarian friend:

Are you Wilson's agent?
Because I have a deal for you then . . . we give the Oilers Ron Wilson, we'll take any of your ASSISTANT coaches, and I predict a better Leafs team going forward!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
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Canada
8176 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  11:17:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think that I ever argued the Leafs can't score. Regardless of it it comes from 1 line or 2, offense is not the issue. Slozo, you named 3 players who are 'tough to play against' defensively. Too bad a hockey team normally needs 6 of those guys in their forward group.

The goalies, confident or not, are both back up goalies in most systems.

Wilson has an average to slightly above average line up of players and that is how they are performing. That is my point.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  20:11:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I don't think that I ever argued the Leafs can't score. Regardless of it it comes from 1 line or 2, offense is not the issue. Slozo, you named 3 players who are 'tough to play against' defensively. Too bad a hockey team normally needs 6 of those guys in their forward group.

The goalies, confident or not, are both back up goalies in most systems.

Wilson has an average to slightly above average line up of players and that is how they are performing. That is my point.



No,
I named FOUR players who are tough to play against who could be in our bottom 6, which was in reference to another poster's comment on the Leafs botom 6. No, the Leafs aren't the biggest or most hard-nosed lot .. . but they are not total softies.

In the top 6, Lupul is no pushover, and neither is Grabovski despite his size. But the offense is there for those lines, look at any other top lines in the NHL that might be considered soft yet effective.

And Beans . . . your put down of the Leafs third line is classic, in that it's the Leafs coach you defend - Wilson - who MADE that line. Exactly the kind of mismanagement I am talking about!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  20:34:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans last season Phaneuf was HORRIBLE for the first 50 games. Keth Aulie was then placed as his defense partner...Phaneuf blossomed for the remainder of the season.

What was Wilson`s reward to Aulie this year ? Sent him to the AHL. He wasn`t good enough for Wilson`s team this season so he then became expendable...some coach heh ?

M. Komo is in and out of the lineup like a yoyo...the guys head is spinning, one mistake and your out..how can you play hockey like this ??

When his goalies play great he downplays them in post game conferences...humbling them...and this is supposed to help Reimer and Gus. how ??...kill their confidience ??

Kadri is astonishing to watch with skill and creativity in the AHL because his coach lets him play hockey...as soon as he is under Wilson`s control..no, no, no, we don`t do that up here....you listen to me and play like robot....Wilson would Fk-in spoil Pavel Datsyuk. He ( kadri ) was argue-ably Toronto`s most creative player in the last 2 pre - seasons but Wilson doesn`t like him.....just let the kid do what he is good at...free - wheeling.

Wilson has had Schenn as the main shutdown PK defenseman for 3 years now...wheres the PK ?? 29th again ?? I don`t even know anymore. How many years will it take for him to realize he needs to change something ?? 4 years, 5 years, 6 years ??

Do you watch any leaf games ?? If you do, have you ever seen so many Break - aways...2 on 1`s...3 on 2`s againist any other NHL team as you do with the leafs ??....i don`t think so !!!

This is 2 years of this now...if Ron Wilson is so great, Do you think he would have solved this problem by now ??

How many games will it take before he realizes that his defenseman are pinching wayyyyyyyy to much at the opposing teams blueline ??...This is where the leafs are constantly being caught out - maned....I seen this 2 years ago.....What is wrong with Ron the great that he can`t rectify this problem ??

I can go on and on and on....but i just get so sick of dwelling on the same ole leaf problems, which can mostly be fixed by an intelligent coach....it would make it so much easier on those guys.

Isn`t he the only coach in NHL history to coach a team to 30 th overall ( dead last ) in PP and 30 th overall ( dead last ) in PK in the same season ????
......NOT ONCE..BUT..TWO TIMES !!!!!!!

As for his accumulative wins...if you`ve coached as long as he has...haven`t you got to win so many games ??? You can`t lose them all can you ??

If the leafs miss the playoffs this season Wilson`s teams ( as NHL head coach ) would have missed the playoffs 10 out of 18 coaching seasons....i know they all weren`t stellar teams but on the other hand, the 8 seasons he DID get in..he had some great teams....a point to ponder.

Career stats as head coach...has 648 wins...559 losses...91 ot losses...( with losses combined he has .... 648 wins...650 losses)...also 101 ties mixed in there.

Outside of the SJ sharks, ( i was interested in what he did outside of the power - house Sharks )....( regular season ) he has a career .497 winning %.....

Was also interested in his winning % with a young Ana. Ducks team, combined with a young leafs team...its a .466 winning %.

As for his playoff winning %.....it is .495

Well, i just threw in some data there for observation. I`m not a Ron Wilson fan and never will be because of his personality...he is a jerk and makes an a$$ of himself in public as far as i`m concerned.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2012 :  23:11:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Were you Leaf fans here on PUH at the game? There was quite the "FIRE RON WILSON" chant going on in the highlights i saw!!

Seems most Leaf fans are pissed BB didn't make a bigger move at the deadline, but i'm not shocked. He's the one who admitted it's a sellers market and buyers have to pay a premium. While he is a stubborn guy, i don't blame him all that much when they're realy not all that close to making a splash in the playoffs.

My honest Canuck-tainted opinion, would be to have Kadri playing as much as possible down the stretch. The Leafs really need to know if this kid is gonna be able to play at this level! Give him the call, give him the ice time on one of the top lines and see what he can do before the draft rolls around.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 02/29/2012 :  04:24:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not too upset Burke didn't do anything at deadline, The Leafs are not in a position to be a buyer right now, even at deadline they were 2 points back of a playoff spot, not a good position to be in to be dealing away draft picks to make a "playoff run" but also in a position where not all hope is lost, so why trade away good players.
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slozo
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Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 02/29/2012 :  05:15:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Were you Leaf fans here on PUH at the game? There was quite the "FIRE RON WILSON" chant going on in the highlights i saw!!

Seems most Leaf fans are pissed BB didn't make a bigger move at the deadline, but i'm not shocked. He's the one who admitted it's a sellers market and buyers have to pay a premium. While he is a stubborn guy, i don't blame him all that much when they're realy not all that close to making a splash in the playoffs.

My honest Canuck-tainted opinion, would be to have Kadri playing as much as possible down the stretch. The Leafs really need to know if this kid is gonna be able to play at this level! Give him the call, give him the ice time on one of the top lines and see what he can do before the draft rolls around.



I totally agree with you, Alex. At this point, Kadri should be a full time Leaf . . . I had predicted he would be up for the whole year, in fact.

But, Wilson hates Kadri. He can't stop slagging the kid in public (check it out on utube if you don't believe me) and he has been so reluctant to give him a shot with a talented centre . . . this, in a season where Kulemin should be playing on the second line, and where a skilled forward like Kadri might fit very well with Grabovski and MacArthur. Sure, it'd be a bit of a "waterbug" line, but at least Kadri is in the right position for his skillset level, and not playing out of role on the third line.

One of the many, many mismanagement issues of Wilson, and until he is fired, will continue on. Kadri has not been perfect, and I have not been a fan of his attitude/effort at times . . . but Wilson has gone a long way to killing the kid's development here.

Funniest thing is . . . Wilson will slag guys like Kadri on his defence, and yet, his supposed leaders/stalwarts are leading the team in horrible defensive coverage. It's all ass-backwards here in Leafland.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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