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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2012 : 22:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
I suppose it's exciting for the fans, but Carkner's attack could have literally ended up being an assault, not unlike what happened when Todd Bertuzzi sucker-punched Steve Moore years ago.In this case, Boyle was unscathed, and in doling out the one-game suspension, Shanahan (and the league) considered this as a factor. I don't agree. There are many incidences on the ice where a player gets up uninjured (i.e. Brian Boyle), but the league should look more at the infraction itself or intent.
Quality post 4377! I've only quoted part of it, but the entire thing was great. I'm on board with you here on the Bertuzzi comparison. Obviously the Bertuzzi incident had a much worse outcome, but like you mentioned, "what if" the outcomes were reversed. It's not unfathomable to think that Boyle could have been KO's with the initial bare knuckled blast from Carkner. "What if" he then fell to the ice, smashed his face into the ice and suffered a cracked skull or something like that? He'd def be sitting more than 1 frickin' game.
1 game is a joke for such a premeditated attack. I'm disgusted at this decision. |
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Guest9084
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 04:58:14
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Thing is... You're a lot likelier to get injured by something like Hagelin's head hunting or Weber's facesmashing than you are by what Carkner did, as is shown by Alfredsson missing the rest of the game (possibly more) or by Zetterberg's cracked helmet.
If anything, I'd have given Hagelin/Weber and Carkner 3. Not really Carkner's fault that Boyle went panzy and turtled instead of fighting back, considering Carkner gave him a good 1-2 seconds at the start.
Weber's fine was the atrocity. Punish the action, not the player nor the injury. Like Hagelin's, that was pure intent to injure, as opposed to simply sending a message that his bullying won't be tolerated. |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 05:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9084
[br
If anything, I'd have given Hagelin/Weber and Carkner 3. Not really Carkner's fault that Boyle went panzy and turtled instead of fighting back, considering Carkner gave him a good 1-2 seconds at the start.
Went Panzy? wow did you even see the play in question.
1-2 seconds? I don't care if he had 10 seconds if a guy is up against the boards with his hands at his sides you DO NOT start punching and call it a fair fight.
I would call what Carkner did head hunting because it was premeditated, Haglin's play was bad but not 'head hunting'
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 07:46:40
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I didn't mean to suggest that I agree with a sucker punch. I was merely stating Carkner right from warm up was vocal to Boyle about what was coming and I'll bet leading up to the gloves dropping told Boyle, in his own words, here it comes. Boyle didn't drop the gloves, which I would assume was to draw a penalty and Carkner, who maybe shoulda laid up after dropping Boyle with one shot. I agree with a suspension and thought 1 game was light.
Regardless the matchup in size was a lot closer between the 2 players and both are physical players. Boyle had just laid into Karlsson with a check prior to Carkner feeding him a few. I'd rather plays like this outta the game, but like Cherry says, if the enforcer can't do his job protecting star players from getting gooned, watch out for whack and hack hockey on the games best players. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 09:24:16
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Look what happened when Steve Moore "went panzy". Bertuzzi chased him up the ice from one end to the other. He sure has heck gave him enough time and warning of what was coming. So, was that justified too? Problem here is the resulting injury. IF Bertuzzi's sucker punch and follow through hadn't had the results it did, i'd have prob felt similar to how you felt with Carkner, but it doesn't make it right, and i sure as hell wouldn't have tried to claim it wasn't a sucker punch!!!
It reminds me of last year when the Canucks were chastised for not sticking up for Daniel Sedin when Marchand was using him as a speed bag. I guess someone should have sucker punched him? |
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Guest5091
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 09:48:46
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My opinion:
Weber - should have been 5
Carkner - should have been 3
Hagelin - should have been 5
Asham - should be 5
Shaw - should be 2
Brown - should be 6, same reason as Hagelin + blindside
Franzen - should be 8
If anything, the first round has shown that there's no respect at all for other players anymore. Almost every series has been a complete gong show |
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Guest5091
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:16:15
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| Oh, and I'd force Neal to sit for 2 as well. I'm sure I'm missing a ton of others... |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:36:47
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I am just curious. The Rangers send out a monster who is 6-7 250 pound against a 6-0 even 180 pound player and Boyle is gooning him all over the ice in game 1. How did you expect the Senators to respond. Clerly in game 1 Boyle is feeding Karlsson with a series of shots to the head while Karlsson's hands were down and a referee was holding him. The difference is Karlsson didn't turtle from the bigger man like Boyle did to a physical equal.
I am not trying to say this guy good and this guy bad, but how would you have like the Senators to respond. IMO lesson learned, suspension dealt and the Senators won based on the physical edge in game 2 |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 04/16/2012 10:37:47 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5091
My opinion:
Weber - should have been 5
Carkner - should have been 3
Hagelin - should have been 5
Asham - should be 5
Shaw - should be 2
Brown - should be 6, same reason as Hagelin + blindside
Franzen - should be 8
If anything, the first round has shown that there's no respect at all for other players anymore. Almost every series has been a complete gong show
YEAH! WE GOT A NEW DISCIPLINARIAN!!! Lol, all kidding aside, i agree with some of this, though some are a little harsh, including 5 for Weber. I'd have been happy with 1, maybe 2 and if they wanted to send a message, even 3, but 5? Ouch.
Carkner imo, because of the fact he was dressed for that purpose alone, should have been the one to get 5! Totally premeditated!
Hagelin - 2
Asham - 3 min for stick to the face!
Shaw - 1 if any. Didn't look totally intentional, i'd prob have to see it a few times over to really get a look at it.
Franzen - Is this the stick into the bench i mentioned in another thread? I still haven't seen it from a good replay. Any link?
Brown - 0 though it was blindside, but not a headshot so i'd have to see what the rules actually say?
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:55:18
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am i the only one that thinks if a player makes and ilegal hit it should be dealt with harshly.
i say if any player performs and ilegal hit the are out for half the year. after that 1 year if they still do it after that they are banned from the NHL.
IMO i say weber should be out for the playoffs.
Carkner - out
hagelin - out
........ you get were i'm going.
ZERO TOLERENCE IS THE ONLY WAY
bassing the suspension on the extent of the ingury is insanely stupid.
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Edited by - mandree888 on 04/16/2012 10:55:44 |
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Guest5091
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 11:00:23
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It's literally the first link on youtube when you search for "franzen spearing"
Brown looked like a high elbow to me. Definitely got him in the jaw anyway, consdering how Sedin was moving it around for so long afterwards. You could probably make an argument that it was shoulder but I don't think it was.
As for my numbers, I tend to put more games for intent to injure. I'm also not a fan of 1-games since it's essentially a slap on the wrist. That's why Shaw is relatively low and Weber's so high. I don't think Shaw was trying to purposely injure Smith but there's literally no reason whatsoever to do what Weber did except to hurt him.
Franzen I had high just because he already should have gotten a match. You can also see he wanted to 2-handed McSorley-style until he realized he'd hit others on the bench too, so he settled on the spear, which is one of the most dangerous things you can do with your stick. Also clear intent to injure... that said, Legwand should/did get an interference call. |
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Guest4927
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:40:19
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A sucker punch is when you dont see it coming, if Boyle didnt see that coming he's blind. The sens didnt suit up carkner to score goals, and i dont think Boyle forgot that he was punching Karlson in the head. So when Boyle seen Carkner skating toward him he must have thought... its on.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4927
A sucker punch is when you dont see it coming, if Boyle didnt see that coming he's blind. The sens didnt suit up carkner to score goals, and i dont think Boyle forgot that he was punching Karlson in the head. So when Boyle seen Carkner skating toward him he must have thought... its on.
What you, me, or anyone else thinks is irrelevant. If Boyle knows or doesn't know what Carkner (did I get his name right this time ) is there to do or not to do is also irrelevant. What is relevant is there is a clear and unarguable rule in the NHL discusses an unwilling combatant (see below).
Boyle did not drop his gloves, did not raise his hands, did absolutely nothing to say he was a 'willing combatant,' and therefore Carkner broke the rules.
There should be no argument about that. The argument should be about the half a$$, weak, junky 1 game suspension that is just another example of the NHL saying, "Do what ever you want to an opponent as long as he doesn't get hurt!"
46.2 Aggressor – The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:42:42
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I am not arguing that Boyle was a chickensh!t and refused to fight, IE, I agree with the suspension. What I am saying is if a chickensh!t like Boyle can hold a 70 pound 7inch advantage on another player who is getting fed with his hands down and a referee in between, I dont care if his gloves are off, he better be prepared when the enforcer comes on the ice and say's hey you big non talented idiot, the gloves are off lets go. I said at the beginning Carkner was vocal in the warmup on what he was gonna do to Boyle during the game, even the announcers chimed in about during the warmup, even the press knew about it hours before, when the lineup was announced. If he wasn't prepared after he checked Karlsson, when Carkner comes towards him, he deserved to be tought not to goon the other players best players. How else was Ottawa gonna protect there best players. Boyle was a turtle and dropped the moment a guy his size challenged him.
And your defending Boyle in this scenerio. Name another way to protect Karlsson, Spezza, Turris and Alfredson. I will shut my mouth if you come up with another plan as effective. Like another poster mentioned, what if this happened in Edmonton to RNH or Eberle. Trust me, somebody from the lineup is gonna stick up for there best players and if the other guy doesnt wanna fight and draw a penalty, the guy teaching the lesson is gonna finish the lesson. |
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Guest2726
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Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:14:01
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| I sure hope Scott dresses tonight for the Rangers. You know what they say about payback. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:18:21
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You want to know how to handle these things?? See Todd Bertuzzi. He has shown the world both how to not handle it (Steve Moore) and how to handle it (Shea Weber).
Carkner, IMO, had two options. Do what he did, which is the wrong answer. Or do what Boyle did. No one was stopping Carkner from bouncing Marion Gaborik around or convieniently pushing Lundvqist over, were they??
What's wrong with that?? If he wanted to get Boyle to fight him, either engage (which didn't work) or start knocking around Rangers until Boyle had to step up.
Boyle is a prize that most teams about cherish. He's a beast who can play hockey. He's a 6'7", 250lb monster who can skate, hit, and put up over 60 pts in the past 2 seasons as a 3rd line player. He's Chris Neil but bigger and likely a better scorer and he is cherished in Ottawa.
Calling him an untalented idiot shows a bias that tarnishes the credibility of the pro-Carkner argument.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:21:21
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=628148
Here is the link to the fine another player took and the fine team was assessed for the comments directed at Rangers players during the warmup. It was preordained that those 2 were gonna hook up at 1 point of the game. As to the poster who asked for Scott to dress, dress him then, it aint gonna make a difference as the Rangers from the captain on down was playing a chippy game and as far I know Ottawa will be playing the same way if that is how the series is gonna go.
My preference, as said before, is to let the skilled players decide the series. Its wishful thinking. Series loser's should not happen because of who is not in the lineup due to an illegal play. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:23:00
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Joshua.....if this were some sort of devastating cheap shot that Karlsson took, i'd understand your position a little better. However, it was a series of soft jabs / rabbit punches / whatever you wanna call'em that did little other than disturb Karlsson. Trust me, as a Canucks fan, i saw D. Sedin absorb worse last year and as much as i wanted to see someone get some payback on Marchand, i would never support someone suckering him the way Carkner did. If Sedin had wound up and thrown a haymaker whilst "under attack", i'd have been 100% okay with it! If Karlsson did the same thing and was overmatched and a guy like Carkner or Konopka jumped in, fine by me. But to challenge a guy and then not only sucker punch him but continue to throw 6-8 more punches once he was down is the clear definition of "chickensh!t" in my books........ |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:25:56
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I dont see how Todd Bertuzzi driving a unconsicous players head to the ice and getting charges laid against him will help Karlsson not be gooned by a 6-7 250pound monster now.
To be honest I dont know Boyle very well. My comment was more about an insult to make a player his size stand up and fight to get whats coming to him. 60 point a year player, wow, at his size. Your right, wish he was on my team.quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
You want to know how to handle these things?? See Todd Bertuzzi. He has shown the world both how to not handle it (Steve Moore) and how to handle it (Shea Weber).
Carkner, IMO, had two options. Do what he did, which is the wrong answer. Or do what Boyle did. No one was stopping Carkner from bouncing Marion Gaborik around or convieniently pushing Lundvqist over, were they??
What's wrong with that?? If he wanted to get Boyle to fight him, either engage (which didn't work) or start knocking around Rangers until Boyle had to step up.
Boyle is a prize that most teams about cherish. He's a beast who can play hockey. He's a 6'7", 250lb monster who can skate, hit, and put up over 60 pts in the past 2 seasons as a 3rd line player. He's Chris Neil but bigger and likely a better scorer and he is cherished in Ottawa.
Calling him an untalented idiot shows a bias that tarnishes the credibility of the pro-Carkner argument.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:31:09
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I guess Boyle cant stand up for himself then. Why do you assume he doesn't see Carkner coming and doesn't have a chance to defend himself? No ref was holding him back. I think he wanted to draw the penalty. Well mission accomplished. Carkner just made sure the penalty was worth it. Didn't stop the player from putting the butt end of the stick in Karlssons face and dragging him down from behind either. Worse part is then he is accused of diving. I'll watch the game and cheer for my team good, bad or ugly but this series is gonna stay ugly.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Joshua.....if this were some sort of devastating cheap shot that Karlsson took, i'd understand your position a little better. However, it was a series of soft jabs / rabbit punches / whatever you wanna call'em that did little other than disturb Karlsson. Trust me, as a Canucks fan, i saw D. Sedin absorb worse last year and as much as i wanted to see someone get some payback on Marchand, i would never support someone suckering him the way Carkner did. If Sedin had wound up and thrown a haymaker whilst "under attack", i'd have been 100% okay with it! If Karlsson did the same thing and was overmatched and a guy like Carkner or Konopka jumped in, fine by me. But to challenge a guy and then not only sucker punch him but continue to throw 6-8 more punches once he was down is the clear definition of "chickensh!t" in my books........
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I dont see how Todd Bertuzzi driving a unconsicous players head to the ice and getting charges laid against him will help Karlsson not be gooned by a 6-7 250pound monster now.
To be honest I dont know Boyle very well. My comment was more about an insult to make a player his size stand up and fight to get whats coming to him. 60 point a year player, wow, at his size. Your right, wish he was on my team.quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
You want to know how to handle these things?? See Todd Bertuzzi. He has shown the world both how to not handle it (Steve Moore) and how to handle it (Shea Weber).
Carkner, IMO, had two options. Do what he did, which is the wrong answer. Or do what Boyle did. No one was stopping Carkner from bouncing Marion Gaborik around or convieniently pushing Lundvqist over, were they??
What's wrong with that?? If he wanted to get Boyle to fight him, either engage (which didn't work) or start knocking around Rangers until Boyle had to step up.
Boyle is a prize that most teams about cherish. He's a beast who can play hockey. He's a 6'7", 250lb monster who can skate, hit, and put up over 60 pts in the past 2 seasons as a 3rd line player. He's Chris Neil but bigger and likely a better scorer and he is cherished in Ottawa.
Calling him an untalented idiot shows a bias that tarnishes the credibility of the pro-Carkner argument.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Sorry if I was unclear, Boyle has 60 points over the past 2 season. 20+ this season and 30+ last season, including a 20 goal year two season ago.
My point behind Bertuzzi is that the action (not the outcome) of what Carkner did to Boyle is not that different than what Bertuzzi did to Moore. That being said, Bertuzzi did engage Weber after game one and the Zetterberg head slamming incident. Weber did engage but I would bet a billion, trillion, gazillion dollars that Bertuzzi would NOT have sucker punched Weber.
Some people learn right and wrong. Carkner has done this in the past and this is now the 2nd situation of him sucker punching an opponent.
This one game suspension will not team him much either.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:01:59
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Ok, agree or disagree if you will.
1. Karlsson was being beaten pillor to post for most of game 1, by Boyle and company.
2. Carkners role is to give his star players some breathing room
3. Boyle was the biggest man on campus and was the last player to check Karlsson.
4. Carkner laid a few to many hits on a down unwilling combatant
5. Carkner has now justifiably received his first suspension.
6. Game 3 will be as chippy as games 1 and 2
7. Ottawa proved they will not be pushed around
8. Ottawa won game 2 on the strength of the physical plays and players
9. We now have a reason to talk about Ottawa in this series.
10. Win lose or draw Ottawa is not alone in the cheap play department in this series |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:12:16
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1. Karlsson was being beaten pillor to post for most of game 1, by Boyle and company.
Disagree. It's the playoffs and the tempature rises. Karlsson might have gotten it more than he did during the regular season not no more than other player are getting it in the playoffs.
2. Carkners role is to give his star players some breathing room
Agreed, without sucker punching unwilling opponents.
3. Boyle was the biggest man on campus and was the last player to check Karlsson.
Scott is bigger. The Sens will learn about how much bigger tonight. I can't say that Boyle was the last guy to hit Karlsson. So many Rangers did, it's hard to remember who the last one was.
4. Carkner laid a few to many hits on a down unwilling combatant
One hit is too many for a down, unwilling combatant.
5. Carkner has now justifiably received his first suspension.
Yes, but the suspension was not long enough for the crime
6. Game 3 will be as chippy as games 1 and 2
Yes, because the NHL did not punish Carkner enough.
7. Ottawa proved they will not be pushed around
Ottawa proved they have at least one player on their team who doesn't respect the rules. Nothing more or less was proven.
8. Ottawa won game 2 on the strength of the physical plays and players
Ottawa won game because they scored more goals than NY.
9. We now have a reason to talk about Ottawa in this series.
At least for 3 more games.
10. Win lose or draw Ottawa is not alone in the cheap play department in this series
Sure, but Ottawa wins in frequency and severity of cheap play. Until tonight. I expect a few body bags.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I guess Boyle cant stand up for himself then. Why do you assume he doesn't see Carkner coming and doesn't have a chance to defend himself? No ref was holding him back. I think he wanted to draw the penalty. Well mission accomplished. Carkner just made sure the penalty was worth it. Didn't stop the player from putting the butt end of the stick in Karlssons face and dragging him down from behind either. Worse part is then he is accused of diving. I'll watch the game and cheer for my team good, bad or ugly but this series is gonna stay ugly.
Where did i say that Boyle didn't have a chance to defend himself or that he didn't see Carkner coming? Or is this still your way of claiming it wasn't a sucker punch??? Like someone mentioned, if he wanted to get back at Boyle for something he didn't like, ask him to fight. If not, bang Gaborik around, bump their goalie, etc, don't go Bertuzzi on a guy.
Lemme ask you this. IF, and that's a big IF, i or any Canuck fan tried to defend Bertuzzi's actions on Steve Moore, what would you have said? Keep in mind, i'm aware Bertuzzi's sucker punch ended up in a far more serious injury, but that's not to say that this Carkner / Boyle incident couldn't have turned out similar. I wonder what your view would be if Boyle had been hurt, even just a concussion or something?
I feel like i'm wasting my time on this now. If you are stuck on your side defending what he did, so be it, but it's not hockey. S'all i can really say. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:52:11
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| All I can say is we may not agree with his length of actions to a downed opponent, but his reason for doing so was justified. BTW if you watch the replay prior to Carkners actions, that is Karlsson Boyle is checking hard into the boards immediately prior to his actions. And Alex I am kinda thinking he was trying to draw Boyle into a fight Boyle was unwilling to fight. Boyle just happened to be the Biggest guy (at that moment) and the last player to check Karlsson. Are you saying nobody can stand up for a teamate or just dislike the pummeling on the ground. I dont think he should kept hitting him either and disagree with the amount of punishment he dooled out too, I just agree with his reasoning. It did not stop the chippy play following his actions. I dont see you complaining about the Rangers chippy play throught just the Senators. It was not a one sided mugging. If it was Alfredson might finished the game. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 16:34:26
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Joshuacanada is Karlson untouchable or something. Last time I checked he is man that plays in the NHL and this is the playoffs. Is nobody allowed to rough the kid up. Like it or not hes going to get that attention especially in the playoffs.
It is almost disgusting the way you are defending Carkner. Not a single player deserves a sucker punch like that. Carkner had all kinds of options to "get back" at the Rangers. He couldve taken the same liberties with the Rangers players that Boyle is taking on Karlson.
I must also mention, in typical Neil fashion he has disappeared from the anticipated rough stuff. Not man enough to step up in the real heat of the situation. Probably waiting to jump a weaker opponent from behind or drop the mitts on an unsuspecting player just like Carkner did on Boyle.
I LOVE THE OTTAWA SENATORS |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 16:42:48
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| I give up. Spear him check him board him sucker punch him. I just dont care anymore. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 17:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
Joshuacanada is Karlson untouchable or something. Last time I checked he is man that plays in the NHL and this is the playoffs. Is nobody allowed to rough the kid up. Like it or not hes going to get that attention especially in the playoffs.It is almost disgusting the way you are defending Carkner. Not a single player deserves a sucker punch like that. Carkner had all kinds of options to "get back" at the Rangers. He couldve taken the same liberties with the Rangers players that Boyle is taking on Karlson.
I must also mention, in typical Neil fashion he has disappeared from the anticipated rough stuff. Not man enough to step up in the real heat of the situation. Probably waiting to jump a weaker opponent from behind or drop the mitts on an unsuspecting player just like Carkner did on Boyle.
I LOVE THE OTTAWA SENATORS
Well said! Let's face it, the way everyone played him during the regular season sure as hell didn't work!  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 18:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I give up. Spear him check him board him sucker punch him. I just dont care anymore.
This seems to be the largest area of disagreement. I, for one, don't think Karlsson got it any worse than any other player or more than a player deserves. Joshua obviously sees things differently.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 21:26:01
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Joshua your sooo bias. Show me a highlight where Karlsson gets hit by Boyle with his hands at his sides...oh wait you can't. When Boyle was tapping Karlsson with his gloved hand it was ove a ref with Karlssons hands on his arms.
By the way, 3 goals in 3 games for Boyle so far, he must be a goon
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 08:54:14
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| Ok this is absolutely the last time I am rereading this post. I did not approve of the hits to a downed opponent, I am not justifying this, period. I did not say Karlsson was getting any worse than any other player on the ice, although I believe he is being targeted more because of his skill level and that is playoff hockey. I think the physical matchup is a mismatch and someone has to step in when he is being over matched, be it feeding him punches when he wont retaliate, or when he is being checked hard, dragged to the ice or buttended in the face. I approve of a player standing up for his teamate and believe hitting is happening all over the ice on both sides. If you take this as I think Carkner or company should Bertuzzi Boyle to oblivion then to hell with my right to have an opinion. That is not what I said and I just dont care anymore. Joshua out. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 12:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I approve of a player standing up for his teamate and believe hitting is happening all over the ice on both sides. If you take this as I think Carkner or company should Bertuzzi Boyle to oblivion then to hell with my right to have an opinion. That is not what I said and I just dont care anymore. Joshua out.
Although you're "out", i feel the need to reply anyway. The problem here is that from the outset you said stuff like "he did what had to be done" and "it wasn't a sucker punch". Both of these are ridiculous statements. I need not explain the sucker punch thing, but "it had to be done" is basically condoning the sucker punch itself. It's been mentioned repeatedly here that there were other ways Carkner could have exacted revenge. He chose a way in which most hockey fans don't approve. Simple as that, and THAT, is not an opinion, but a fact!
Look at the quote above where you say " I approve of a player standing up for his teamate". You then claim you didn't say he should "Bertuzzi" him. Problem is, aside from the outcome (luckily for both Boyle and Carkner it wasn't serious), this incident is as close to the Bertuzzi incident as i can recall since the Bertuzzi incident!!! What you are failing to admit, is that the action Carkner took could have easily resulted in something extremely serious injury-wise to Boyle.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 12:40:28
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OMG, as close as the Bertuzzi incident as you can recall. I have never had it at your for your team and usually reserve my ribbing for T.O. players. And my ribbing is usually just in good fun.
It was in no way similar to the Bertuzzi incident and suggesting they were similar is pissing me off. Bert hit him from behind, fell into him and drove his head into the ice breaking his neck. Hey, wasn't he a Canuck at the time sticking up for one of his players who was injured months before. Berts incident cost a player a career. Carkners while dangerous did not. I dont think pummeling a guy into the ground belongs in the game and have agreed it is a suspendable play.
Anyone responding to my comments:
Do you actually think I am saying here is it is ok to pummel a player on the ground! If you think that is what I am saying you are dead wrong. I was advocating having a player on the roster who's role is sticking up for a teamate who is overmatched and not defending himself. Carkner is not the only player in the whole NHL who has come to the defense of another player and punched another player in the side of the head. Do I need to be clearer. Do you have an understanding of what I am trying to say or should I just go away. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 14:57:11
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Fair enough joshua, now I will help you a little bit.
I fully support your opinion that teamates need to stick up for each other. And if one teamate in particular is getting a little extra abuse then for sure he or someone needs to respond.
You must not be surprised that Karlson is getting a little roughed up and maybe getting targeted by the opposition bullies. Karlson has had an outstanding season, i will go out on limb and say he is the Sens best player. If I am playing against him, knowing its his first playoffs, your damn right I am going to give him a little more attention, throw him off his game. Karlson will learn from it and certainly be able to handle it better in the future. Actually he really seems to taking his lumps and still performing quite well.
I LOVE THE OTTAWA SENATORS |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 16:28:31
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
OMG, as close as the Bertuzzi incident as you can recall. I have never had it at your for your team and usually reserve my ribbing for T.O. players. And my ribbing is usually just in good fun.
It was in no way similar to the Bertuzzi incident and suggesting they were similar is pissing me off. Bert hit him from behind, fell into him and drove his head into the ice breaking his neck. Hey, wasn't he a Canuck at the time sticking up for one of his players who was injured months before. Berts incident cost a player a career. Carkners while dangerous did not. I dont think pummeling a guy into the ground belongs in the game and have agreed it is a suspendable play.
YES, this is in fact the closest to the Bertuzzi incident as i can recall. Feel free to refresh my memory of something closer. Sure, there was no serious injury, but don't waste your time and mine trying to convince me that Boyle couldn't have been seriously injured! As for your "ribbing" or "having it at me for my team", this has no bearing on this whatsoever!!! Bug me about the Canucks, hate on'em all you want, i don't care. It changes nothing about the way i feel about this incident.
Here's the problem you seem to have comparing the two incidents. You can't or haven't grasped the reality that this incident could have concluded with Boyle being seriously injured. He could have been KO'd and falled face first and smashed his head on the ice. He could have fallen head first and smashed his head even with the helmut and sustained a concussion or worse (possibly even a cracked skull). Until you realize just how dangerous a sucker punch like this can be, and how chickens*** it is, you will continue to be in denial!
What you also don't understand is that i prob feel this way because as a Canucks fan, i lived through the Bertuzzi incident and i'll admit that when i saw it (i was at the game), i cheered.....for about 1 minute. At that point, i realized Moore was seriously injured and it hit me, just how bad it was what Bertuzzi had done. He didn't body check him, he didn't fight him fairly, he completely jumped him unsuspectingly and it forever changed two players lives. If a guy is a willing combatant and gets KO'd, seriously injured, etc, i wouldn't be feeling the way i feel about this hit. Whether or not Boyle knew something was going to happen, i don't believe for a second that he thought the cheap shot / sucker punch was going to be coming or obviously he'd have defended himself from it!
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Anyone responding to my comments:
Do you actually think I am saying here is it is ok to pummel a player on the ground! If you think that is what I am saying you are dead wrong.
No, def not. I believe you even said or implied that you didn't agree with the punches thrown once Boyle was felled to the ice. BUT, you did seem pretty content with the original cheap shot / sucker punch, even if you didn't think it was a sucker punch. You also said that Boyle "got what he deserved", which again, i disagree with.
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I was advocating having a player on the roster who's role is sticking up for a teamate who is overmatched and not defending himself. Carkner is not the only player in the whole NHL who has come to the defense of another player and punched another player in the side of the head. Do I need to be clearer. Do you have an understanding of what I am trying to say or should I just go away.
I'm all for having team mates stick up for each other, but only if it's within the rules of the game (including a fair fight, which is technically a penalty as it's against the rules). The kind of retribution that Carkner seeked just doesn't sit well with me.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 17:15:30
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Well in my recent memory having been hit in the face once by another player, less than .1% of the time results in the injury you seem to think Carkner was capable of. Repeatedly beating a player while he is down like Carkner did would more likely have cause the damage your worried about. I agree the severity of the pummeling was excessive. It is the NHL not the UFC
I still maintain though if you throw a punch on a defenseless player who has his hands tied up and like Karlsson, he isnt the type to seek retribution, he may have a bigger teamate more than willing to dish it back. In this case Carkner went to far, but I still believe if you are willing to throw a punch be prepare to receive one.
I do understand why you are touchy about it. I was a fan of Bertuzzi's prior to the incident. Pretty much made me dislike the Canucks for an extended period of time. |
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Guest9001
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Posted - 04/17/2012 : 17:29:53
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sucker punch
This occurs when someone hits someone else from behind, usually when the person being hit doesn't know it until afterwards. Usually considered shady or a "bitch move".
Definition of SUCKER PUNCH
transitive verb
: to punch (a person) suddenly without warning and often without apparent provocation
According to above definitions and most people in the world, what Carkner did was not a sucker punch. It was a punch to the face, from the front after carkner hit him and gave him a chance to drop his gloves, of a completely aware person who made the decision to not defend himself. Boom.
He didn't need to continue punching him but it sure was entertaining and if you watch the replay they're all body shots. Also alex any nhl fight/hit has the possibility to become as dangerous as you have claimed as it is just as easy to fall and smash your head on the ice in many altercations.
And I'm not sure who it was, probably beans with his oil/leaf loving going on calling out neil, later on in the game Boyle decided to fight Neil who is more of a middleweight compared to Boyle and Carkner and neil dummied him. |
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Guest9001
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Posted - 04/17/2012 : 17:32:57
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| Sorry Beans, it was porkchop who called out neil for not fighting. It's also okay to cheer for those teams, well for the oil anyways. |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 18:44:27
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfVoCsZT2Iw
Above is a link for anyone who didn't see discussed plays
Joshua please view before you continue to compare what Boyle did to Karlsson in game 1 to what Carkner did to Boyle in game 2.
How is Karlsson "defenceless", where are his "hand tied"?
I think you may be blinded by your love for Karlsson
Guest9001 you should also watch the video and show me where Boyle get "dummied" by Neil? If you don't think Carkner sucker punched Boyle because Websters dictionary tells you so thats fine I looked up a word to
Chickensh*t - chick·en·sh*t
Noun - Someone who punches another 8 times while their hands are by side or they are on the ground
Example - Matt Carkner is a Chickensh*t
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Guest9001
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Posted - 04/17/2012 : 19:06:33
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| I guess I will use your own logic against you clatts, Since karlsson didn't have hands tied and he wasn't defenceless neither was boyle defenceless, he chose to turtle and not defend himself, again watch the clip they are body shots all except the first. And actually chickens***s are generally used to point out people who run from fights or fight with large numbers against one person. |
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Matt Carkner, meet Shanny! 
