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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:02:59
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Poll Question:
Now that the Oilers are officially eliminated from post season contention, what do you think the Oilers should do with their coaching situation? Keep in mind that this is 3 straight years out of the playoffs and 6 of his 8 years as coach out of the playoffs.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Guest8935
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Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:13:00
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| They should fire him but they won't. It's an old boys club in Edmonton. And if they do fire him they'll probably hire someone else who's played here like Huddy or Buchberger. Poor Oilers... |
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Bozonator
Top Prospect
57 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:55:04
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| Well personally I believe he should be fired as the coach, but moved into another part of the organization. |
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Guest6690
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Posted - 04/08/2009 : 13:00:12
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| Good coach just not working out in Edmonton |
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Guest0433
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Posted - 04/08/2009 : 13:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8935
They should fire him but they won't. It's an old boys club in Edmonton. And if they do fire him they'll probably hire someone else who's played here like Huddy or Buchberger. Poor Oilers...
its true lets pray sutter or nolan gets hired instead |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 16:52:00
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I think the guest post a couple ago hit the nail on the head. MacT is a good coach and he has done well based on the teams that he has. Let's face it, the Oilers have never been a contending team in his tenure. I don't believe that the Oiler have had a single PPG on their roster in the 8+ years he has been coaching.
This years team has underachieved, there is no doubt. I still don't believe they are a Cup Contender, but they definately have the roster to be a playoff team. In recent years, they were hit pretty hard with injuries. This year they have had significantly less injuries (with the exception of Visnovksy) and did not live up to expectations.
It's unfortunate, as I think most of the blame is on the players. Sure, Gagne has played brilliant hockey in the past 10 games or so, but where was he before that?? Cogliano seems to have settled into a 3rd line role and has made no noticable effort to work his way into a top line position. Horcoff is our only really good 2 way forward and Hemsky has been streaky. The bright spots for the Oilers was a potent offensive defenseman group and a brilliant 39 yr old UFA goalie.
So ya, I agree that it's time for Mac T to go. It's not really his fault, but he's easier to replace than the 22+ skaters on the ice.
A perfect example was last night's game. Each player interviewed talked about having to get out to a good start, put the pressure on the Kings, and don't let up. What did they do?? Slept through the first 10 minutes of the game and tried to come back from 2 goals down.
MacT should go, but I am not sure if that solves the problem. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/08/2009 16:53:08 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 05:17:21
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Summed up well by Beans here - MacT hasn't had great teams to work with in the past, but they underperformed this year a bit and they probably need a new face in there next year.
Frankly, on paper, I still think Edmonton is almost where they should be, a marginal playoff team/just out of the playoffs. Two years ago Smyth was a PPG player (53 points in 53 games), and Hemsky and Horcoff were just under PPG players two years ago(71p/74games and 50p/53games respectively), and same this year for Hemsky (65pts in 69 games), although Hemsky's production is misleading, as he gets half or more of his points on the power play. Past that, the last two years the supporting cast has been quite weak. Not a whole lot to work with there.
But sometimes, you just need change for the sake of change, and this might be one of those times.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4212
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Posted - 04/09/2009 : 07:16:52
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| 8 years without a front line player - that's brutal work by the GM |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 08:52:50
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Ya Slozo, you are right. There have been a few PPG guys, but I should have clarified. What I was trying to say is a PPG guy for a season. I don't think the Oilers have had an 80+ point performance from anyone on their team in MacT's tenure. In the NHL today, you need at least one if not more to be successful, along with a solid mobile defensive unit and an above average goalie. And 2 out of 3 doesn't cut it.
I heard it best from a caller into a sports show in Edmonton yesterday. Simply put, if you have 1/2 or more of the players on a team playing without heart, how is that the coaches fault??
The player in Edmonton have more responsibility in the problem than the coach. And as the guest just said, the lack of a bonified performing forward is the GM's responsibility. I am still a fan of Lowe(and now Tambolini) but my patiences is wearing thin on having a 8th-10th place roster for nearly a decade. |
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Guest9109
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Posted - 04/09/2009 : 09:39:27
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| i thought it was the coaches job to inspire his players to play with heart. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 09:52:55
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I think that a play with heart can be motivated. A player without heart(such as Penner) is something that the coach can do nothing about.
A player has to want to play before a coach can motivate them to be better.
As I said, I agree that MacT's time behind the bench in Edmonton is down to it's final two games. But I don't think the shortcomings of the Oilers are 100% his responsibilities. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 10:34:31
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Mac T is a bad coach. Edmonton needs a coach who can develop their young talent better. Possible candidate...Randy Cunneyworth? Excellent rookie devleoper. Kevin Lowe is a f*** excuse my language. As a Sabres fan especially needs to learn how to make a team. Fire Lowe before you fire the coach. Lowe's job was in jeapordy so he went out and threw money at the first RFA's he could get his hands on. Next he threw money at the first UFA's he could get his hands on. From this he was able to salvage his job, even though he is pathetic. As a side effect, now we have players that go from rookie contracts to 4-7 million. Good luck to small market teams. What happens if Atlanta drafts Tavares...as soon as his rookie contract is up they won;t be able to afford him in the small market.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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Guest9109
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Posted - 04/09/2009 : 12:40:17
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| if players like penner arent producing then just bench them for a couple games, usually works to get some fire under the benchee's ars. thats what good coaches do |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 12:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9109
if players like penner arent producing then just bench them for a couple games, usually works to get some fire under the benchee's ars. thats what good coaches do
He tried that it worked good for a few games then the flame went away.
I dont think it has anything to do with Penners Heart. I think alot of players in Edmonton do not like Mac T and you see it in their everyday game. It iis incedibly hard to play for a guy you have no respect for. |
Edited by - tbar on 04/09/2009 12:58:20 |
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Guest0433
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Posted - 04/09/2009 : 13:49:36
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ya too bad he only did that to penner and nillson i love gags but come on at that 1 point he needed to be scratched if your going to do it to one person you have to do it to them all instead of riding captain take a pentaly when its a tight game. Its pretty obivious he shows favoritism to the vets anyone can notice that. saying penner has no heart is a bunch of crap sorry mact tried to turn him into a 3rd line grinder after he lead the team in goals last year ya good coach...NAT
why do you need a PPG player to make your team good its kinda hard with mact coaching style since they play the half dump and chase and if you don't no what i mean watch them play and you noticed we play the weirdest trap in the league yet still get 40 shots on our goaltender every game pretty much
If Edmonton does not fire this grey haired idiot by the end of the year. I\ll go cheer for Calgary atleast they have a coach that has an exciting style of hockey to watch only minuse is the dumb fans but what team doesn't have those
I honestly hope he gets a chance to coach an amazing team and run them into the ground
"when one player plays bad its his own fault when the whole team plays bad its the coaches fault"
"longest winning streak this year 4 games any idea when that happened" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 14:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
Mac T is a bad coach. Edmonton needs a coach who can develop their young talent better. Possible candidate...Randy Cunneyworth? Excellent rookie devleoper. Kevin Lowe is a f*** excuse my language. As a Sabres fan especially needs to learn how to make a team. Fire Lowe before you fire the coach. Lowe's job was in jeapordy so he went out and threw money at the first RFA's he could get his hands on. Next he threw money at the first UFA's he could get his hands on. From this he was able to salvage his job, even though he is pathetic. As a side effect, now we have players that go from rookie contracts to 4-7 million. Good luck to small market teams. What happens if Atlanta drafts Tavares...as soon as his rookie contract is up they won;t be able to afford him in the small market.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There are a few facts that are being missed here. Firstly, he went after UFA's first. The season that Lowe actually signed Penner to the offer sheet as an RFA(the same year he offered Vanek $10 million on an offer sheet) there were many irons in the fire such as Nylander(who verbal agreed and then went to Washington). Only after the UFA's on Lowe's list signed with other teams did he go after Vanek and then Penner.
Secondly, any time a player has been signed as an RFA, the offer is normally higher than that players market value. That's simple strategy. If you want a RFA, you have to offer more in hopes that the other team doesn't match.
Thirdly, it's part of the Rules. No rule was broken in what Lowe did. You can disagree with it, but he didn't break any rule.
Fourth, you blame Lowe for the RFA offer sheets that season, don't you have to put the same amount of blame on your own teams GM?? If Regeher wanted to keep Vanek, he had the whole season before to sign him to an extention. The fact that he was available as an RFA make him as much responsible as the guy who gave him the offer sheet.
And lastly, Vanek is a bonified 40+ goal scorer who is only 25 years old. If you take a look at most any other bonified 40+ goal scorer in the league who has signed a deal since the lockout, it is either multi-million over a 10+ year contract(such as Ovechkin) or $10 million per year (at least off the start) on a shorter contract (such as Heatley). Vanek would have gotten his $$ with or without Lowe's offer sheet.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 14:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0433
ya too bad he only did that to penner and nillson i love gags but come on at that 1 point he needed to be scratched if your going to do it to one person you have to do it to them all instead of riding captain take a pentaly when its a tight game. Its pretty obivious he shows favoritism to the vets anyone can notice that. saying penner has no heart is a bunch of crap sorry mact tried to turn him into a 3rd line grinder after he lead the team in goals last year ya good coach...NAT
why do you need a PPG player to make your team good its kinda hard with mact coaching style since they play the half dump and chase and if you don't no what i mean watch them play and you noticed we play the weirdest trap in the league yet still get 40 shots on our goaltender every game pretty much
If Edmonton does not fire this grey haired idiot by the end of the year. I\ll go cheer for Calgary atleast they have a coach that has an exciting style of hockey to watch only minuse is the dumb fans but what team doesn't have those
I honestly hope he gets a chance to coach an amazing team and run them into the ground
"when one player plays bad its his own fault when the whole team plays bad its the coaches fault"
"longest winning streak this year 4 games any idea when that happened"
I am wondering if we are all watching the same Oilers???
Seriously, Penner has had a horrible career in Edmonton to this point, and he has no one to blame but himself. Even though he "lead" the team in goals last season, 23 goals in 82 games playing mostly 1st line minutes should be an embarassment. Horcoff had 21 goals in only 53 games playing on the same line. Please.Penner is the softest 6'4", 245lbs player in the NHL. He plays lazy, undiciplined hockey and doesn't produce enough. This season, 17 goals and 37 points is borderline 2nd line, more like 3 line production in today's NHL.
The fact that Penner is a 3rd line player is based 100% on his lack of commitment to the game and his team. MacT has nothing to do with that. Simply, Penner was not as good as the players that MacT was using on the 1st and 2nd line this year.
And what do you need a PPG player for??? You find me a single team in the NHL in the past 5 years that has had any success without at least one point a game player??? Name one. I bet you can't and I think that answers that question.
C'mon folks. I agree that MacT's time is up in Edmonton, but if you have watched more than 10 Oiler games this season and you don't agree that as much blame if not more is on the players for their performance, than you have been watching a different team than I have. Agree with the system or not, MacT has one. The fact that the players do not execute on the plan is as much as a problem for the Oilers as any other issue they have. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 22:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
Mac T is a bad coach. Edmonton needs a coach who can develop their young talent better. Possible candidate...Randy Cunneyworth? Excellent rookie devleoper. Kevin Lowe is a f*** excuse my language. As a Sabres fan especially needs to learn how to make a team. Fire Lowe before you fire the coach. Lowe's job was in jeapordy so he went out and threw money at the first RFA's he could get his hands on. Next he threw money at the first UFA's he could get his hands on. From this he was able to salvage his job, even though he is pathetic. As a side effect, now we have players that go from rookie contracts to 4-7 million. Good luck to small market teams. What happens if Atlanta drafts Tavares...as soon as his rookie contract is up they won;t be able to afford him in the small market.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There are a few facts that are being missed here. Firstly, he went after UFA's first. The season that Lowe actually signed Penner to the offer sheet as an RFA(the same year he offered Vanek $10 million on an offer sheet) there were many irons in the fire such as Nylander(who verbal agreed and then went to Washington). Only after the UFA's on Lowe's list signed with other teams did he go after Vanek and then Penner.
Secondly, any time a player has been signed as an RFA, the offer is normally higher than that players market value. That's simple strategy. If you want a RFA, you have to offer more in hopes that the other team doesn't match.
Thirdly, it's part of the Rules. No rule was broken in what Lowe did. You can disagree with it, but he didn't break any rule.
Fourth, you blame Lowe for the RFA offer sheets that season, don't you have to put the same amount of blame on your own teams GM?? If Regeher wanted to keep Vanek, he had the whole season before to sign him to an extention. The fact that he was available as an RFA make him as much responsible as the guy who gave him the offer sheet.
And lastly, Vanek is a bonified 40+ goal scorer who is only 25 years old. If you take a look at most any other bonified 40+ goal scorer in the league who has signed a deal since the lockout, it is either multi-million over a 10+ year contract(such as Ovechkin) or $10 million per year (at least off the start) on a shorter contract (such as Heatley). Vanek would have gotten his $$ with or without Lowe's offer sheet.
NO, you are absolutely wrong! First it doesnt matter if Lowe wentafter UFA's before RFA's thats a stupid rebuttal. It does not matter which he went after, he still f***ed over the league by being an idiot. He's like Avery and his antics...technically its not illegal but its still wrong.
Secondly, Blake scored similar to Vanek, he received 4 mill. Vanek received 7.1 mill. Thats a little more than a market over payment, thats Lowe trying to screw over another team and make himself look good enough to keep his job.
Regehr did nothing wrong...he should have gave Vanek a 4-5 mill offer, instead Lowe, desperate to keep his job offered 7 mil. Lowe singled handly destroyed the integrity of the league, whether it was against the rules or not.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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Guest2117
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Posted - 04/09/2009 : 23:56:35
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Beans I honestly have to tell you after a bit to drink tonight that you are one of those never played (take it how you like) never really understood the f'in game of hockey type of people that should quit talking about the game and watch curling!!! God you talk about a player having no heart??? How the f***$ did he make it to the show in the first place then, Penner that is or any other player on the team. I am not and never will be an Oil fan, but I love Hockey and they're the team on my telivision service the most,so I follow them. I know that half that team gave up on Mac T half way threw the season and had they changed coaches they make the playoffs. I KNOW THAT CERTAIN KEY PLAYERS ON THAT TEAM HATED MAC T!!! I know more about that team then you do.[ admin edit - personal attack ]
Any more personal attacks will get your whole post deleted. Discuss the point, don't diss the person. |
Edited by - n/a on 04/11/2009 10:22:10 |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 00:01:29
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| The Blachawks top scorer Havlat has less then a point a game to this date and they have locked up a playoff spot. Would you like me too look further? I wont just so you know but lots of teams have had balanced scoring under a point a game and been just fine. As far as winning the cup I dont know but thats a whole different can of worms. |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 04:59:00
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| Ever since Smyth left Edmonton hasn't been the same |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 08:46:18
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Alright, looks like I have a few haters to answer to.
Firstly, to Guest 2117. I agree that any player in the NHL is head and shoulders above anyone who plays hockey at any other level. There are a very few who get to play in the NHL and even fewer with any kind of career. However, I am comparing and NHL player to other NHL players. In that case, yes, I can confidently say that it "appears" that Penner plays the game without heart and lacks effort in more games than he shows effort it. It doesn't matter if I played hockey or not for me to be able to see this or say this. And I would appreciate if you continue to post on the site that you leave the person out of the arguement. It is fine to disagree with what I am saying, but coming back with statements like I don't understand the game or I should watch curling is uncalled for.
To TBar - You are correct, Chicago does not have a PPG guy. Neither does Carolina, NYR, Montreal, or St. Louis. Is is coincidence that of the 5 teams that actually made the playoffs without a PPG player(or appear to have made the playoffs) 3 of them are 7th or 8th seeds??? Above this, take a look back on the Cup winner and Cup finalist. Since 1979-1980, the Cup was played for 27 times (missed the one because of the lock out). Of the 54 teams that played in the final, only 11 had teams without a singe PPG Player(granted many of those teams has a guy with like 78 points in 80 games). Even more so, only 4 teams in that time won the Cup without a PPG player. And only 5 times out of 27 Cup finals did the team with fewer PPG player in the regular season beat the team with more PPG players. So 93% of the time, the Stanley Cup Champion has at least one PPG player.
In the end, as I said countless times, MacT is a good coach who has definately lost the room and can not be successful with the current team. And, I firmly believe that no team can win the Cup (or really be successful otherwise) without at least one, bonified PPG offensive foward. The Oilers don't have one. Hemsky could be but he needs help to get there. Their defense is fine, their goaltending is a question mark, and they need to either keep Kotalik and find one more top 3 forward or find at least a top 3 and a top 6 forward in the offseason.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 04/10/2009 08:52:50 |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 08:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
Mac T is a bad coach. Edmonton needs a coach who can develop their young talent better. Possible candidate...Randy Cunneyworth? Excellent rookie devleoper. Kevin Lowe is a f*** excuse my language. As a Sabres fan especially needs to learn how to make a team. Fire Lowe before you fire the coach. Lowe's job was in jeapordy so he went out and threw money at the first RFA's he could get his hands on. Next he threw money at the first UFA's he could get his hands on. From this he was able to salvage his job, even though he is pathetic. As a side effect, now we have players that go from rookie contracts to 4-7 million. Good luck to small market teams. What happens if Atlanta drafts Tavares...as soon as his rookie contract is up they won;t be able to afford him in the small market.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There are a few facts that are being missed here. Firstly, he went after UFA's first. The season that Lowe actually signed Penner to the offer sheet as an RFA(the same year he offered Vanek $10 million on an offer sheet) there were many irons in the fire such as Nylander(who verbal agreed and then went to Washington). Only after the UFA's on Lowe's list signed with other teams did he go after Vanek and then Penner.
Secondly, any time a player has been signed as an RFA, the offer is normally higher than that players market value. That's simple strategy. If you want a RFA, you have to offer more in hopes that the other team doesn't match.
Thirdly, it's part of the Rules. No rule was broken in what Lowe did. You can disagree with it, but he didn't break any rule.
Fourth, you blame Lowe for the RFA offer sheets that season, don't you have to put the same amount of blame on your own teams GM?? If Regeher wanted to keep Vanek, he had the whole season before to sign him to an extention. The fact that he was available as an RFA make him as much responsible as the guy who gave him the offer sheet.
And lastly, Vanek is a bonified 40+ goal scorer who is only 25 years old. If you take a look at most any other bonified 40+ goal scorer in the league who has signed a deal since the lockout, it is either multi-million over a 10+ year contract(such as Ovechkin) or $10 million per year (at least off the start) on a shorter contract (such as Heatley). Vanek would have gotten his $$ with or without Lowe's offer sheet.
NO, you are absolutely wrong! First it doesnt matter if Lowe wentafter UFA's before RFA's thats a stupid rebuttal. It does not matter which he went after, he still f***ed over the league by being an idiot. He's like Avery and his antics...technically its not illegal but its still wrong.
Secondly, Blake scored similar to Vanek, he received 4 mill. Vanek received 7.1 mill. Thats a little more than a market over payment, thats Lowe trying to screw over another team and make himself look good enough to keep his job.
Regehr did nothing wrong...he should have gave Vanek a 4-5 mill offer, instead Lowe, desperate to keep his job offered 7 mil. Lowe singled handly destroyed the integrity of the league, whether it was against the rules or not.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Damn I like posting after a few brews.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 09:14:08
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Hey Reeder, I forgot about your post. Do me a favor and answer these questions.
1) Was Kevin Lowe the first GM to sign an RFA to an offer sheet??
2) Why didn't Regeher offer Vanek the $4-5 million before July 1st??
3) How is it that Lowe Effed over the league if every GM has exclusive signing rights to their own players prior to July 1st??
4) How is it that Lowe Effed over the league where there were already 3 or 4 other players in the league making $10 million/season before the offer sheet and many players in the league with a $7 million cap hit. Most of them not being 40+ goal scorers.
5) Vanek had 43G,41A, 81Pts and was +47 the season before the "forbidden" offer sheet. Blake (if you are talking about Jason Blake) had 49G, 29A, 69 Pts and was +1. Also, Blake is 10 years older than Vanek. They are not one and the same and you can also see since they both signed deals the same year and the results since. Vanek is better than Blake in all areas of the ice at all times.
6) What is wrong with Vanek's contract?? Is it that crazy??? There will be 32 players making more money than Vanek next year. He has a very similar contract to the likes of Cory Perry and Patrick Marleau. Isn't that is exactly where he should be??
7) Did you consider that if Lowe doesn't do the offer sheet and Regeher offers Vanaek $4-5 million that he doesn't sign because similar players to Vanek are making $6+ million and leaves as a UFA the next season??? Just like Briere and Drury did.
It could be worse. You could see Buffalo (who is a non playoff team) without their most productive player. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 10:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Reeder, I forgot about your post. Do me a favor and answer these questions.
1) Was Kevin Lowe the first GM to sign an RFA to an offer sheet??
2) Why didn't Regeher offer Vanek the $4-5 million before July 1st??
3) How is it that Lowe Effed over the league if every GM has exclusive signing rights to their own players prior to July 1st??
4) How is it that Lowe Effed over the league where there were already 3 or 4 other players in the league making $10 million/season before the offer sheet and many players in the league with a $7 million cap hit. Most of them not being 40+ goal scorers.
5) Vanek had 43G,41A, 81Pts and was +47 the season before the "forbidden" offer sheet. Blake (if you are talking about Jason Blake) had 49G, 29A, 69 Pts and was +1. Also, Blake is 10 years older than Vanek. They are not one and the same and you can also see since they both signed deals the same year and the results since. Vanek is better than Blake in all areas of the ice at all times.
6) What is wrong with Vanek's contract?? Is it that crazy??? There will be 32 players making more money than Vanek next year. He has a very similar contract to the likes of Cory Perry and Patrick Marleau. Isn't that is exactly where he should be??
7) Did you consider that if Lowe doesn't do the offer sheet and Regeher offers Vanaek $4-5 million that he doesn't sign because similar players to Vanek are making $6+ million and leaves as a UFA the next season??? Just like Briere and Drury did.
It could be worse. You could see Buffalo (who is a non playoff team) without their most productive player.
1) No, but he was the first to be an idiot and pay 7.5 million for a 80 point scorer and 5.25 for a 45 point scorer.
2) It was not offered because idiots like Lowe screw over small market teams with these offers so Darcy could not offer it to him. Instead he was attempting to bargain him down a bit so they can afford him.
3) Read my post [ admin edit ].
4) You are not listening...
5) Dont even try and justify that as an arguement.
6) Vanek gets 60+ points a season. How to justify paying him 7 million. And you are wrong, the cap is going down people will not be paid that much. Franchise players like Zetterberg, Nash and Kovalchuk make around that money...Vanek is not a franchise player. He is a Holmstrom. If you try and watch more than one game, Vanek sits in front of the net and gets tips and rebounds...garbage goals I could score.
7) Without Lowe, Vanek would have signed for 4-5 million or went to arbitration and would have been awarded 5-5.5 million.
Pominville and Roy are the most productive players. Vanek is just a player that feeds off the performances of others. Is Holmstrom that good? He's good but his success came from the performance of linemates Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
Edited by - n/a on 04/11/2009 10:28:29 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 13:00:09
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Don't drop the personal attacks such as "idiot." Not only is it not part of the forum rules, but I have not laid a single personal attack. I would appreciate the same respect that I give to you.
Lowe was far from the first person to offer $7.5 million to a 40 goal and 80 point player. In fact, I would say most 80+ point (or PPG players) are making at least $7.5 million unless they are still in their early contracts. And how is it that you can compare a 60 points +1 player to an 80 point +47 player???
Lowe is in the smallest of small markets, he didn't screw anyone over. He took advatage of a rule that others would not and tried to take advantage of other GM's who did not sign their own players when they had the chance. You still have not answered why "Darcy" didn't offer Vanek a contract any time through that season???
And Pominville and Roy are both very good players, no doubt about it. However, Roy has 4 more points than Vanek playing in 9 more games, Pominville has 9 more points playing in 9 more games, and they both have less goals than Vanek. They are all about the same in PPG(Roy is .79, Pominville is .80, Vanek .81) however, Vanek has 3-35+ goal season and 1-40+ goal season. Neither Pominville or Roy have a single 35+ goal season between them. So let me clarify, Vanek is a more productive goal scorer and equal to any other player Buffalo has.
And if you think for one second that Vanek would have gotten only $5 to $5.5 million through an arbitrator, I think you are missing some history. P.M Bouchard got over $4 million and never had more than 20 goals or 60 points. A 40 goal and 80 point player is definately in the $7+ million world. At the best, Buffalo would have saved $1 million a season, and that's a maybe in my opinion.
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 13:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Don't drop the personal attacks such as "idiot." Not only is it not part of the forum rules, but I have not laid a single personal attack. I would appreciate the same respect that I give to you.
Lowe was far from the first person to offer $7.5 million to a 40 goal and 80 point player. In fact, I would say most 80+ point (or PPG players) are making at least $7.5 million unless they are still in their early contracts. And how is it that you can compare a 60 points +1 player to an 80 point +47 player???
Lowe is in the smallest of small markets, he didn't screw anyone over. He took advatage of a rule that others would not and tried to take advantage of other GM's who did not sign their own players when they had the chance. You still have not answered why "Darcy" didn't offer Vanek a contract any time through that season???
And Pominville and Roy are both very good players, no doubt about it. However, Roy has 4 more points than Vanek playing in 9 more games, Pominville has 9 more points playing in 9 more games, and they both have less goals than Vanek. They are all about the same in PPG(Roy is .79, Pominville is .80, Vanek .81) however, Vanek has 3-35+ goal season and 1-40+ goal season. Neither Pominville or Roy have a single 35+ goal season between them. So let me clarify, Vanek is a more productive goal scorer and equal to any other player Buffalo has.
And if you think for one second that Vanek would have gotten only $5 to $5.5 million through an arbitrator, I think you are missing some history. P.M Bouchard got over $4 million and never had more than 20 goals or 60 points. A 40 goal and 80 point player is definately in the $7+ million world. At the best, Buffalo would have saved $1 million a season, and that's a maybe in my opinion.
That's the best part..in your opinion. Without proper proof your opinion is worthless. I have provided more than one player and more than one piece of evidence, relating one to one is easy to make something seem different than reality. P.M Bouchard is one person. Can you not give me more examples? Crosby got over 90 points while earning 0.9 ..see what I mean.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 14:31:13
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What proof have you provided??? Oh, that's right. You compared Jason Blakes contract to Thomas Vanek's. Yep, Jason Blake, a 35 yr old, 5'10", 180 lb forward who had one out of 9 NHL seasons with more than 30 goals and 60 points should have the same contract as a 25 yr old 6'2", 208 lbs player who had 3 of his first 4 seasons of more than 35 goals and more than 60 points. Oh, let's not forget Blakes steller best +/- season of +16 and his career of -4 vs Vaneks career best of +47 and career of +28.
Wow, what the hell was I thinking??? Definately, Thomas Vanek, one of the top 10 goal scorers in the league over the past 3-4 years should be getting the same money as Jason Blake. It makes total sense to me now. What the hell was I thinking???I appreciate the enlightenment. Obviously, I should keep my opinion out of hockey because I am clearly no match for the brilliant minds I am up against.I never played hockey so I don't know anything at all.
Crosby got 90+ points making $900,000 under his rookie contract. What was the next contract he signed??? What about Ovechkin. He had tons of points under his rookie contract. What did he get after that??? Oh, that's right, they both got a little bit of a raise and are getting $4-5 million a season. Come to think of it, Malkin, Getzlaf, Zetterburg, Datsyuk. Yep, all those guys took a really small raise after their rookie contracts. I remember now!
I will definately get more examples of arbitrations in the past, but I am on my way to the Oilers game tonight so you will have to wait. I am thinking I might have a difficult time getting information on 40+ goal players going to arbitration as 99% the GM's our there would try to sign a young, big, stong, fast, skilled scoring forward well before their contract expires. But I guess "Darcy" is that brilliant of a hockey mind that he can be the 1% of the "other" GM's out there.
Guess that's why you see so many Cup banners hanging from the rafters of HBSC Arena.Buffalo themselves have made the playoffs only 2 times in the past 6 years. Before one starts critizing the moves of other GM's, perhaps looking at their own team's GM is in order???
Nope, I gotta be wrong about that too. I guess I am simply the biggest moron on this site and should just give up while I am ahead.
Have a nice night. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 15:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nope, I gotta be wrong about that too. I guess I am simply the biggest moron on this site and should just give up while I am ahead.
Finally you get it.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 16:22:44
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"I vote for" Beans
"For reasons I will keep to myself. Be careful where you open your mouth" Reeder
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 16:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Alright, looks like I have a few haters to answer to.
To TBar - You are correct, Chicago does not have a PPG guy. Neither does Carolina, NYR, Montreal, or St. Louis. Is is coincidence that of the 5 teams that actually made the playoffs without a PPG player(or appear to have made the playoffs) 3 of them are 7th or 8th seeds??? Above this, take a look back on the Cup winner and Cup finalist. Since 1979-1980, the Cup was played for 27 times (missed the one because of the lock out). Of the 54 teams that played in the final, only 11 had teams without a singe PPG Player(granted many of those teams has a guy with like 78 points in 80 games). Even more so, only 4 teams in that time won the Cup without a PPG player. And only 5 times out of 27 Cup finals did the team with fewer PPG player in the regular season beat the team with more PPG players. So 93% of the time, the Stanley Cup Champion has at least one PPG player.
Beans you proved my point here. And I am impressed you went and looked that all up. The Edmonton Oilers have a good enough team from the 1st - 4th line to be in the playoffs this year IMO. I dont think they have a stanley cup team but they should have made the playoffs and generated that extra proffit. This I think lays on the shoulders of Lowe and Mac T. 1st off Lowe should have seen that Mac T was not getting 100% out of half his team. Why I dont know maybe a lack of respect. 2nd If you see this you have no choice but to do something about it. 3rd everybody is scared to piss off there old teammates and buddys and thats why nothing happenes in Oil land. I personallly dont think Mac T is a players coach and at that level you have to be IMO. These players are in the NHL, that means they are good hocky players. You dont have to teach them anything other then a few systems that you want them to play. You need to be a good guy who the players like but also have an edge so that they dont think your a push over. You also have to be able to motivate your team. I dont think Mac T honestly can do either of those 2 tasks. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 17:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
"I vote for" Beans
"For reasons I will keep to myself. Be careful where you open your mouth" Reeder
That's funny cause I made that s*** up. I voted cause I didn't like you. Have fun not debating in the competition bud
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 21:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
"I vote for" Beans
"For reasons I will keep to myself. Be careful where you open your mouth" Reeder
That's funny cause I made that s*** up. I voted cause I didn't like you. Have fun not debating in the competition bud
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
That's funny....you are just like I thought. Thankfully you don't like me, it makes me feel much better about my opinion of you now. I just don't get why guys like yourself spend time in forums, is it a low self-esteem thing? Be antagonistic here, cause you can't in the real world? Not too bright? Homely? Lonely?
It seems all your replies have some way for you to attempt to belittle and condescend...weird....and actually kind of sadly pathetic..ah well I'm sure you think you're being cool...good luck with that. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 21:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
"I vote for" Beans
"For reasons I will keep to myself. Be careful where you open your mouth" Reeder
That's funny cause I made that s*** up. I voted cause I didn't like you. Have fun not debating in the competition bud
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
That's funny....you are just like I thought. Thankfully I like you, it makes me feel much better that I can be open about my feelings. I just get guys and I like you and look forward to spending time with you in the forums. Sexy? Hot? Mmmm.
It seems all your replies have some way that just gets me hot..I can't explain it...weird....and actually kind of sadly pathetic..ah well I'm sure I want you bad...I hope you want me baby.
What are you talking about?
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 23:31:21
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 I must admit, that made me laugh out loud...
Very creative. Well done. Very juvenile, but well done.
I am only wondering why you have to always be so be confrontational with everyone.
And of course I'm kinda wondering where you came up with your edit from, must be your diary or something, I'd have no idea how to come up with such man-love eloquence...must be an experience thing...
Ahh well, I'm sure you'll carry on with this....
I won't. |
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lyall
PickupHockey Pro
360 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 00:25:49
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Okay...Umm lets see here....
So if we could get off the "Reeder's a doucher/Beans didn't play hockey" forum and get back to the MacT forum.
In my opinion MacT is a very good coach, but he hasn't had the best help from management or players over his years. If the Oilers do fire him, he will be coaching in the NHL by the end of next season. There is even a rumor that he will coach team canada at the worlds coming up.
Some things he does have no answer for and he sometimes doesn't make the best call. ie Penner. Some would say he has no heart. I would say he is a 3rd line overpaid play player, with a lot of pressure to live up to, who isn't given a role he can play. He doesn't belong on the top line, so he will not preform well given that role. He does play well on the power play, but he doesn't get much power play time. This is only his third full season in the NHL and he needs proper development. Calling him out publicly and scratching him after he doesn't play well in a role he should not be playing... hell I would be pissed at the coach too. But you know what? We all do stupid things and make bad choices(hell just read this forum you can see someone making a ton of bad choices). Just because a team its living up to the hype is no reason to go pull the trigger, especially mid season. I mean look at TB, MTL or OTT did there coaching changes make them a better? Smart teams do things the right way. Like SJS. They had a great coach in Wilson(some people would probably say he is terrible and he should be fired because TO didn't make the playoffs) , but it didn't win them the cup. They wait until the off season, fire him just to get a change.
I think the Oilers do need a change behind the bench. I do not think they will fire MacT though. He will be moved upstairs and given a new title and Brent Sutter will be coaching the Oil come training camp.
If he does stay coach I will still stand behind him and cheer for the Oil. You learn to follow your leader, even if you think you could do it better. It not always about doing what you think is best, its about doing what your told and following your leader. And if you really don't like what the leader says.... leave. go cheer for the Caps.
"I Was So Happy I Gave Kerry Fraser A Hug" -Bill Guerin |
Edited by - lyall on 04/11/2009 00:37:15 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 08:44:36
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I'm really not sure what to make of Mactavish, I think he's a good solid technical coach, I just think he has troubles getting his players to execute consistently. In every game I've watched this season, they have periods where they can look completely dominating, using a team system, breaking out as a unit, cycling as a unit and so on.
The trouble is that the players never seem to sustain that focus and inevitably end up running around a bit. Is that the coaches issue? I think it is, and that is why I think MacT probably has to go. He doesn't seem to be able to inspire enough consistent effort out of his players, or managaemnet won't allow him to, either way it sits in his shoulders.
A Sutter would be interesting in Edmonton, with all that youth, I can only imagine how much better they could be if they played with that higher level of intensity a Sutter coach seems to get out players. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 09:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I must admit, that made me laugh out loud...
Very creative. Well done. Very juvenile, but well done.
I am only wondering why you have to always be so be confrontational with everyone.
And of course I'm kinda wondering where you came up with your edit from, must be your diary or something, I'd have no idea how to come up with such man-love eloquence...must be an experience thing...
Ahh well, I'm sure you'll carry on with this....
I won't.
Woah..all I do is ask a question and you start with the personal attacks?! I'm sorry I will not stoop to that level even if you want me.
Crosby is not the Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 10:40:08
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That's it boys - I am tired of going through the editting process, with all of the childish mud-slinging, so from now on, I will just delete the whole post if it has a personal attack in it.
The discussion is about the Oilers coaching and team play. That's it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 13:17:33
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I second that from Slozo, even if the post has valid points and brings something to the thread, a personal attack will mean it gets deleted.
I think that the two posts between Fat Elvis's, Lyall's and Tbar really sum everything up. To sum up those three posts
1) The Oilers have a playoff roster but not a Cup contending roster. They should be in the playoffs.
2) Steve Tambellini and Kevin Lowe have a responsibility to provide the coach with the right players to win. MacTavish has a responsibility to coach a system and provide motivation for those players. And the players have a responsibility to execute on the system and play with the determination to win.
None of those three things happened consistently this season and there is no one person or area that can be blamed. Everyone in the Oilers organization is equally responsible for the shortcomings of the season.
3) MacTavish is a good coach who's time has run out in Edmonton. It's easier to move out the coach than to gut the entire team.
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Guest8114
( )
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Posted - 04/12/2009 : 01:07:31
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hey, i jsut would like to say that MacT has only brought the Oilers to the playoffs like 3 times in the past like what? 8 years? If you ask me, with all the young talent that the oilers have like gangner and gilbert, we should very well atleast be a playoff team, If we did make it to the playoffs i believe that we should have the potentail to be able to make it to at least the second round. I think the oilers need to work on their goaltending, personally. Weather they have to hire a goalie coach or just trades some players to get a better goaltending situation. Roloson has been decent at the most for the oilers in the past. sometimes he liets in 3 goals on 10 shots, sometimes he liets in 1 on 40 shots. he needs to be more consistent for us to win. Also i know this forum is about MacT but i would just like to say that trading garon for sabourin and some prospect was a big mistake. for example, look how many times we played Sabournu this year.. like none i think. ahaha And Garon might not have been doing the best this year for the oilers but last season he was great. I think that Firing MacT and starting off fresh would get this team going in the right direction.
BTW: dont mind my atrotious spelling :S |
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Topic |
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The Future Of MacT 
